Entertainment For Lively Minds
Breathtaking
Posted by DougieJ on 7 April 2010 - 8:55pm.
Arjen Robbens's strike tonight quite literally took my breath away. Just stunning.
After tonight's game and last night's Messi masterclass, laments about football 'not being like it was in the old days' seem utterly ludicrous, irrespective of the issues they raise about debt, loss of identity, whatever.
I'm far from an A.B.U. and I bow to no-one in my admiration of SAF, but I had to marvel at his chutzpah in his post match interview tonight where he talked about 'typical Germans' for crowding round the referee. Like that's never happened closer to home...
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apart from the obvious selective memory
there is the racism aspect? How can he get away with that?
As I posted on another thread
here, I don't think xenophobia or racism has anything to do with it. It's just a fanatical identification with his team, whether that be Man U, Aberdeen, St. Mirren or East Stirling.
Also, do you honestly think that no foreign manager has ever uttered the words 'typical English / Brits'? I know, two wrongs etc, but I just think some perspective is in order.
I'm sure they have
but when Sir Alex Ferguson, Knight of the Realm says it live on TV, considering all the hard work being done to rid the game, and society, of racism, I think that is different.
If he had said "typical Bayern" that's something else altogether.
If anything
it's mild xenophobia, NOT racism - completely different things. It was an off the cuff remark uttered by a guy who was emotionally drained and hurting after a very tough cuptie. Give him a break. ABUs, bloody hell!
I agree they are different things
xenophobia is fear of foreigners in general whereas racism is one particular race. Seems pretty clear which one applies here.
But
"German" is not a race. The majority of Germans would tick the "white European" box on a questionnaire about racial background. (Although I am well aware that not all Germans are of one race. There was a bit of trouble over that idea 70-odd years ago, wasn't there?)
Making anti-German comments as SAF did last night is not, therefore, racist. Nor is saying that, based on last night's evidence, all Scots must be nasty old gets who are sore losers. Those comments are xenophobic (as they show a dislike of foreigners) and bigoted (as they demonstrate intolerance).
well
by the same token, if you call someone from Pakistan a P*ki, you are, by most peoples definitions, making a racist comment although Pakistan is not a race either. In addition, for people of his generation, any derogatory remark made against Germans carries connotations. He is in his late 60s and has been in the public eye most of his life, he should understand this.
Anyhoo, we could probably argue the semantics all day but I still think a man of his experience, age and stature should be able to perform a 2 minute post match interview, even in the most heartbreaking circumstances, without spitting out his dummy.
Two very good points
Especially the latter.
Should we agree to agree, with a slight difference in semantic emphasis?
Done!
now I can see why you're an umpire.
Chew on it SAF
It might have have been a good idea to take the chewing gum from his gob as well
Not a German in sight here
(Also posted elsewhere, but bears being posted twice, I think, unless Fraser disagrees of course...)
Although
they weren't trying to get a player sent off, as I recall. Still, don't let the facts get in the way.
Let's split hairs then shall we?
SAF's actual words were "They all rushed towards the referee. Typical Germans."
I suppose the entirely friendly posse above - comprising an Irishman, a Welshman, a Dutchman and two Englishmen, but no Germans - walked calmly towards Mr D'Urso to request in the most pleasant of terms that he accede to their reasonable request to award them a penalty kick in accordance with the laws of association football? Or did they all rush towards the referee demanding that he give them what they wanted, which is exactly what the Bayern Munich players did tonight, only the latter were slightly less aggressive in attitude and posture.
As ever, the answer is HMHB
form The Referee's Alphabet:
"The G is for the gnarled face of someone who’s on £90,000 a week and reckoned he should have had a throw in"
These have been great quarterfinals...
...at least the Barca - Arsenal and Bayern - Man Utd matches. Certainly as good as if not better than the old days. Shame the same can't be said for Alex Ferguson's comment. Horrible stuff.
Van Gaal had a bit of luck tonight but he's outthought SAF over the two legs and Bayern more than deserve to go through. How United threw it away from 3-0 though is something I will never understand.
As for Robben's goal, I'm just glad I've got the day off tomorrow (I live in Holland) as everyone will be talking about it.
What can't you understand?
Bayern got one goal back before half-time, which changed the dynamic of the game.
United were down to ten with half an hour left, very difficult to hold on. They certainly 'didn't throw it away'; these Johnny Foreigner teams are actually quite good and can score goals, even against eleven men. Who'd have thought it?
What can't I understand?
I know what happened. I watched the match. That first goal was indeed absolutely crucial but the defending on it was shocking - almost as if United thought the job was done. Given they were 3-0 up, I'd say they threw it away, particularly considering where on the pitch Rafael (the player up against Ribery) received his yellow cards.
I think Ferguson made two massive mistakes in this tie. The first was his substitutions in the first leg (was he watching a different game) and the second was to play a 19-year-old right back against Ribery. None of this is said with hindsight on my part.
Manchester United are a better team than Bayern Munich but Louis van Gaal is a better coach than Alex Ferguson and this was the difference.
No hindsight involved in your comment
Nor, sadly, is there any appreciation of what happened in the first 50 minutes of the game last night. The lad was outstanding!
No, no hindsight
I said that it was insane to the person I watched the match with when we saw the teams. He did play well but there was always a big chance that his inexperience would lead him to do something stupid. The first half yellow was that moment and from there on there was an inevitability that he would pick up a second as Ribery was playing on that side.
Ferguson
I don't recall old rednose damning the entire Portugese nation when twinkletoes took a dive on a regular basis.
He takes the term 'bad loser' to a whole new level - I don't think he is racist, just stupid.
The thing that gets me...
...is the sense of entitlement that was implicit in Ferguson's remarks, as if his team could only fail to progress into the last four in Europe via some combination of terrible luck and skullduggery. Forgive me while I wax nostalgic but wasn't it the case, many years ago, before the European Cup was turned into the Champions League, a convenient feeding trough for the usual suspects, big name teams used to get turned out on their ear early in the competition? This made the competition as exciting as it was last night in every round and meant that big teams just had to accept that sometimes they lost.
You mean
the halcyon days when, er, Aston Villa were kings of Europe? Even Liverpool more often than not ground out wins rather than sweeping the opposition aside with their artistry as Barcelona do today.
In my opinion, though it may be an inconvenient truth, the Champions League is on a higher plane aesthetically than the old European Cup.
And what's so bad
about Villa winning stuff? They had a bloody good side and beat all the teams put in front of them. Personally i think the new champions (ha) league is an over long gravy train that's only worth watching from the quarter finals onwards. Still want villa to qualify for it though...
Frankly don't care who wins it....
...but it's a competition and not a beauty contest open only to the people who were in it last year.
Typical Germans
All a bit pc here?
I enjoyed the comment - its a rum old world without an unsporting grumbly comment like that, particularly when aimed at Germans.
Do you really expect/want managers to be entirely magnanimous and balanced after losing a game like that? And wouldn't it be boring if they did respond in a washed clean PR style?
Typical Germans eh?
In the picture on the BBC Sport, the player leading the crowd round the referee is well-known German Mark Van Bommel, with world-famous German Franck Ribéry not far behind him.
Admittedly, Bastian Schweinsteiger's there too (and I can't work out who the other one is), but a German, Frenchman and Dutchman, coached by a Dutchman is hardly "typical Germans", is it?
So well done, Alex, xenophobic and factually inaccurate in one sweeping statement
Olic
I'm prettty sure it's Olic, Joe, another well-known German...
But they're not much more German...
...than Man Utd are English, are they? French, Croatians, Dutch manager etc. "Typical Contemporary Professional Footballers" more like.
Bowing out gracefully
Could Arsène de l'Arse's comment 24 hours earlier - "We were beaten by a team who are better than us and have got the best player in the world" - be the only instance in living memory of a big-four English club losing a Champions League tie with good grace rather than calling the ref a disgrace or denouncing the opposition's unsporting pact with Satan?
Golly, I think it quite possibly could.
Barcelona are sublime at the moment.
They are the Harlem Globtrotters of international football.
this is just football ifs and buts
... if Arsenal had fielded their first team rather than half of it (they would have been closer to Barca but still probably lost) ... if Rooney had been fit and ManUtd kept 11 men on the park, then they would have reached the semis ... that's how close things are at this level of European football ... a lapse by Carrick, a hand on Ribery at the wrong time, a wonder goal from Robben in 90+ mins and it's 3-2 rather than possibly 4-0 or 5-0 ... small 'events', big outcomes, and beyond the effective control of coaches ...
Absolutely!
It's like refereeing decisions, offsides, flukey goals, they all balance out over time.
SAF must surely know that in his famous 'football, bloody hell' victory in 1999, Bayern Munich were bloody unfortunate. They dominated United in that game; if that had gone the other way he'd have moaned bitterly about time added on or sone such thing.
Is Fergie
Stan Boardman in disguise ?
Absolutely breathtaking...
...is the assumption in the English media that one of Arsenal, Chelsea, M** U**, and Liverpool have a god-given right to get to the final. This all stems from Liverpool's comeback in the 05 final and the campaign to ensure that they played the following season in the Champions League as an extra team. The "where do we go now" attitude set out here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/apr/08/manchester-united-bayern-...
and here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/mancheste...
just reinforces this attitude. If nothing changed in football, we would be watching Real Madrid in the final each year.