Entertainment For Lively Minds
Best Friends... A Moral dilemma
I have a good friend that we will call Big Ted. Ted is 6foot4,5 feet wide and 3 feet deep... he is a big boy, and not too much fat on him either.... at school his nickname was The Tank. Very apt.Now Big Ted is one of my very best friends, always great company, very generous with his time... indeed, when I began the route to go into business for myself some 10 years ago, Ted in his capacity as a financial advisor worked for me for nothing, securing finance, insurance and all that other shit that goes with dealing with banks and finance companies, obtaining the best deals he could for me, always refusing his "cut" in order to get the best deal for me that he could.
Literally, I would not be where I am now without Ted.
In 2004 Ted was caught by Operation Ore for downloading kiddie porn.
He lost his license to operate as an independant financial advisor, he lost his wife and young daughter, he lost his home, he lost everything. He was not jailed, but given a heavy fine.
Ted was then ostracised from our circle of friends... banned from the pub, the golf outings, the party's etc which really was the least of his worries. He eventually moved away from the area to try and rebuild his life.
What he did was gross, bad, wrong and one may think that he was justly punished, and I for one would have no argument with that. But he is my friend, so I kept contact with him.
During our sporadic meets he was grateful that I still was still his friend,still witty and good company, but he was a shell of the man he used to be.
I last saw him a few years ago and he was in a bad state...drinking a bottle of whisky plus six or seven pints of beer per day... he cut himself off from me earlier this year, not replying to emails or calls or whatever.
Big Ted died yesterday aged 57. Today I cannot stop crying.
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My thoughts are with you
and with your friend and his family.
Sheesh, Geach...
...that's hard to bear. It can't have been easy to keep him as a friend in the face of all the pressures, so kudos to you. After all that, to lose him this way...shit, just shit. You obviously valued him and what he did for you - remember him that way.
Sorry to hear that
Your unconditional support for your friend is to be commended.
Best wishes to you, Geacher
That's a sad and sobering tale.
very very sad
(
A friends a friend
So chin up mate.
I'm so sorry, Geach.
I'm really moved by that post and admire you hugely for your loyalty. Best friends are an incredibly special thing; I know that my love for my own best friend is pretty much unconditional, and I know that if I lost him I'd be the same way. Your post does you enormous credit and I'm really sorry for your loss.
All the very best.
A very sad story,
he was lucky you stuck by him.
third attempt:
still don't know what to say ... sometimes it is actually a sair fecht
Deepest Sympathy
That was a touching post. My only comment is that Ted was lucky in one element of his life by having a great friend like you.My total respect and sympathy to you and yours.
Sorry for your loss
It's made all the more tragic that you really cannot mourn his death as openly as you would like. Sounds like your friend did receive a life sentence of sorts.
Austin,
I mourn his death openly, but Ted did wrong and he was severly punished, and he continued and lived with that shame and that punishment till yesterday.
He had only one child, a girl of 11 now. He was not allowed to see his child without supervision from the social services, and not allowed to have his child overnight.
This more than anything drove him down the road to ruin.
Now one may say that he deserved all he got, and I can see where that viewpoint may come from, and I can see where people may think that.
I mourn him, he was a good man and a good friend.
Big Ted RIP
Your friend broke the law
and for many of us here with small children he broke the law in the worst possible way. The law dealt with him and his was a life sentence in it's truest form, that was between your friend and the law. Your friendship was between your friend and you and your compassion in the face of overwhelming facts does you great credit, I'm not sure I could be so forgiving. Take solace in the fact that you gave him time and friendship when others deserted him, your conscience should be clear, mourn his passing and sleep well.
"Worst possible way"
I disagree.
The best possible scenario is for a paedophile to completely suppress his urges. A bad scenario is for him to obtain pornographic images. The worst scenario is for him to commit child abuse.
But he did commit child
But he did commit child abuse. By seeking out and downloading those indecent images of children he perpetuated the cycle of abuse which leads to children being exploited, exposed and put on the web for mens sexual gratification. These images are not easy to find on the web. It takes motivation and intent to find, browse, select and download these images. Internet Child Pornography is not a victimless crime. Just because a man didn't actually physically touch/abuse a child does not mean his crime was less harmful. His needs created a market which others fed via the sexual abuse of kids. It is an ugly subject and in my opinion you cannot apply a sliding scale of morality to it. It's is wrong in all it's various forms and there is no excuse or mitigating circumstances which can excuse that.
Sorry for the rant. I'm a social worker and have to deal with this stuff far more than I would like to.
This is all true and all valid.
I don't think Spartacus was intending to imply that his crime was victimless, but I think most people would agree that downloading this stuff - while utterly, utterly, utterly repellent - is one (albeit very small) step down from committing the acts yourself. A very small step.
We're still talking serious numbers on the moral repugnance scale. It's close to the worst thing. It's not quite the worst thing.
I can't imagine how heartbreaking finding this out about a close, loved friend would be. I think the tone of the thread is mostly appreciation for Geacher's incredible kindness and humanity in continuing to be there for a friend who had committed a crime the likes of which makes all of us turn cold with disgust.
I don't think I've ever been as impressed or moved by someone on this blog as I am by Geacher right now. His friend did an unimaginably grotesque thing. Geacher, while condemning the crime utterly, didn't withdraw his love.
I think that's fucking amazing.
I'm getting tired of this
You've taken my comment out of context and then added a boatload of straw men. You're not the only member who does this.
To clarify for the simple-minded:
Dave said 'Ted' had broken the law in the worst possible way.
I replied that there were worse things he could've done.
I didn't say:
- It was easy to find what he found
- That it was a victimless crime
- That it wasn't wrong
- That it wasn't serious
- That he can be excused for his crime
Attempt to Peace-Broker
I don't think anyone has taken anyone out of context here. It's an honest disagreement on both sides.
The other poster wrote the post he wrote because those are the reasons that he believes the two crimes are as horrific as each other. He provides a valid argument for why one might take such a position, and I don't think he implied that because you seem to disagree with his conclusion, you are shut out from all the arguments that led him to it.
SMs point was unequivocal
and didn't merit the response it got.
er,
Spartacus said that Ted didn't commit child abuse, while the riposte was that he had in fact done just that.
I'm not sure how that constituted a straw man argument.
Splitting hairs
I meant actual direct physical abuse, as opposed to the abuse-by-proxy that is viewing child pornography.
There are plenty of straw men in Carabara's post. Viewing child porn isn't a victimless crime? I never said it was.
Carabara is now on the shitlist.
I hope...
... his name's (if that is his name?) not above mine.
In my capacity...
...as the resident hippie peacemaker of the Massive, can I suggest that maybe this isn't the right thread for a falling-out? Not taking sides, just suggesting that, as I know you gents are just that - gents - it might be worth a manly handshake and an agree-to-differ.
Fair point
You're the resident peacemaker?
Clearly there was no interview process.
?
Hi Spartacus,
Just browsing and returned to this post. I was surprised and concerned to read that my comments created such a reaction. I had no intention of offending anyone, dismissing the undoubted grief geacher felt at the death of his friend ( I passed on my condolences and respect in this regard ), or open up a debate on child pornography. With hindsight I regret my contribution - this wasn't the place to express my opinion. I shouldn't have brought my work into this forum. I respect your opinion and understand/accept your point of view. I was only expressing my own opinion as I felt I was entitled to do - it was not a criticism of your comments. Anyway...apologies for any offence.
Geacher - I genuinely respect and admire your efforts to support your pal. We would all be blessed to have a friend such as yourself. I have no doubt Big Ted knew you were there for him but sometimes people go to places we just can't reach them - as others have advised, remember him for the man you knew and loved.
Think I'll be lying low on here for a while!!!
Ah, don't worry about it
I over-reacted and I'm sorry.
Cheers mate
...offers cyber hand shake
FWIIW Spartacus.
I didnt read your post as in any way trying to "lessen" (for want of an expression), I thought what you said was very similar to what I thought, but as ever, you worded it far better than I ever could.
I think he showed incredible friendship & loyalty, & I admire his courage in coming here & saying what he did.
A very sad, very moving post.
Mr Amitri
Thank you for that. Yes he did wrong, and I was not so sure that I could be forgiving, but I was.
And tonight I will sleep in an alcoholic haze.
Just want to say that my
Just want to say that my comments above were not directed at your friend specifically. I offer my condolences and admire your efforts to be there for him.
They do appear
to be remarkably male-centric. As we've seen in the news recently it isn't a uniquely male crime. I'm always shocked at the number of people in positions of trust who commit crimes against children, not all of whom are men.
I've stumbled perfectly innocently across a site which promoted paedophilia whilst researching Lewis Carroll. I was out of there like lightning, but how many people can say they've never come into contact with the darker corners of the internet?
Geacher, you have my deepest sympathies, you were a friend when he needed one, what more could you have done?
Gutted
Used to like him in The Professionals.
Dave speaks more wisely and eloquently than I ever could.
Remember the good times. And that you were a true friend.
He made his mistakes.
You did not make any though.
What more could
you have done?..you stood by and stood up for a friend in the most difficult of circumstances..in time, and I know it is hard to believe now, you will remember the good times spent with a good mate.
Our thoughts are with you ..
You're a good man.
Geacher and were a good friend. That was a heartbreaking story, and I wish you all the best, hoping your grief passes quickly.
Hope sharing helps
If we really love someone, then that is the most important thing, not the mistakes they make. Remember your friend and the good things he did. I'm sure you posted this for the support and friendship you are now getting from the Word massive - hope it helps a little. Take care and condolences.
I feel for both
of you so much right now. I have a mate who's stuck by me through thick and thin over the last 25 years, and that's why I feel sure that Ted knew he was loved, even though he didn't want you to see his unhappiness.
I'm a Ted of sorts, albeit with different failings, and your loyalty means pretty much everything to us.
Good for you
I'm fiercely loyal to my friends and I hope I'd do what you did. A friend in need is a friend indeed as the old homily goes. Your ability to put the terrible part of your friend's life in a different box is a credit to you. A dear pal of mine and I fell out over something completely stupid and whilst he wouldn't communicate for years I wore the bastard down and we are well on the way to rebulding our friendship, which is what friends do, isn't it. All the best fella.
Hate the sin, love the sinner.
My deepest condolences to you and your friends family. I lost my best friend at the beginning of the 1980s to a drug overdose. There is not a day goes by that I do not remember him. There is not a day goes by that I do not miss him. You sir were a true friend, a rare thing and worthy of the highest esteem. I'm sure your friend found some solace in that in the face of a life gone hideously wrong. Kudos to you.
Many lovely comments on here.
That was a helluva post to wake up to - really heartbreaking, thought-provoking, all sorts of things...
I wish you well, and hope you are able to see your way through this. It is really sad.
Thoughts
It must have taken a lot for Greacher to write and post his feelings and my heart goes out to him for the sorrow he is going through. Deepest condolences to you.
RIP Ted
Your loyalty is impressive
You think you know someone, etc.
I don't know what I'd do, but I do know things would never be the same between us again.
Your post made me feel so sorry for you and Ted's family
Did he admit to you that he was guilty, geacher53? I noticed a lot of Operation Ore suspects were wrongly accused?
(No need to answer if you feel this is prying too much - I completely understand)
You have done nothing wrong. Don't feel guilty at all.
So sad
So sad - and moved - to read your story. I was on jury service a year ago and ended up on a 5 week paedophilia trial. Of course, the men tried for child abuse were appalling in their behaviour but the overwhelming feeling was that they were sad, inadequate and pathetic individuals rather than truly evil. And, of course, their families were left devastated ( there was no evidence that their abuse had involved their own children ).
Your response to your friend
took a lot of courage and empathy - you did a great thing, and I'm not 100% sure I could have emulated it.
Bob's comment:
"His friend did an unimaginably grotesque thing. Geacher, while condemning the crime utterly, didn't withdraw his love.
I think that's fucking amazing."
sums up my feelings exactly.
My friend,
I am certain that the various words of wisdom and of support above will comfort you in this moment. Bearing in mind the many posts I have read since you introduced me to this blog, I am not really surprised at the level of care and concern shown by many others for your current plight. As I told you before - remember the good stuff.
Thankyou for sharing your experience.
I was moved by your sorrow, by your friend's awful dilemma, and by the terrible consequences of his actions, and I hope that I'd have the courage to do as you did if it were to happen to someone close to me.
From Geach
I am absolutely stunned and somewhat overwhelmed by the tone of the messages and the empathy you have all shown to my original posting. I thank you all, I am really deeply touched. I must also thank The Californian and Helena Handcart who took time to contact me personally, you are both good people, but I knew that anyway.
As to my motives in writing the original script, well it began in my mind as a "Look what my stupid friend did" post, but the subject matter was to serious for such a frivolous piece, so there was a lot of catharsis there.
But please, I need no sympathy... the reality is that Big Ted was lost to me and everyone else some years ago.
Now I am not being magnaminous or faux noble here, BUT...
Instead give your sympathy to his daughter who for reasons she may never understand, never really got to know her Father. Also to Dan, his stepson, to whom he was really close, and to whom he was also denied access to. More on Dan (not real name)... when Dan turned 16 or 18, I cannot remember which, and was of a legal age to do what he liked, he moved out of his Mothers house, eschewed overtures from his blood Father, and moved in with Ted. That in itself speaks volumes.
And in response to Guy Incognito, no, he was guilty, and pleaded such in court. He downloaded "only" 200 images, looked at a few then deleted the rest. This is not condoning what he did, but trying to get a wee perspective. This was shown by his punishment, a fine of £500, which was fairly low compared to punishments that were being handied out at that time. Again, not condoning.
The real punishment that Ted received was much, much greater.
When the brown smelly stuff hit the fan, there was a queue that stretched from here to Lands End of people ready to give him a sound verbal kicking and to make sure that he was aware that he was now persona non grata. Ted was hugely successful in his role a an IFA, and a lot of these people were were given free financial advice on many occasions over the years, much to their gain it must be said.
Indeed one evening many many years ago he walked into our local, sat by a table in the corner, placed a sign with his name on it on the table, tinged a tinger and announced "The evening financial surgery is now open. First up get me a pint of export".
I mourn my late friend, but I will not remember the shambling wreck of a man that I last saw.
I will remember his killer green thai curry, his expensive suits that looken like a Burtons cheap job when he wore them, our golfing days out- he could hit a ball a feckin' mile he could. Shit around the greens tho'- our holiday in Portugal, the evenings putting the wrongs of the world right, his joy of becoming a father for the first time when he was in his mid forties,our quiz nights, his late evening phone call when he unexpectedly, and to his unbridled childlike joy, met one of his heroes- Tony "TS" McPhee in a pub, and spent two hours in the Groundhogs guitarists company. One wee story sums Ted up.
He had been fined £50 for some road traffic offence, which he was not happy about. So, when the day to pay it arrived he went to a bank, and withdrew the money in 1ps and emptied the lot into an old holdhall. He took it to the clerk, handed over the docket and dumped the holdall on to to the clerks desk. The clerk looked at the slip, looked at the holdall then looked at Ted.
"Thank you sir. Please count it".
And Ted did.I met Ted later that evening, and I can still see him in my minds eye, recounting the story with a sparkle in his eye, and a broad grin on his face, and showing no sign of rancour: "Wot a bastard, eh? Just goes to show you Geach, whenever you think that you're the smartist kid in town, there is someone always smarter".
Thank you all again for your kindness.
I will miss my friend.
There are three types of friends
when you are in trouble.
Those that walk away..
those that stand beside you..
and those that take one step closer.
Geacher my friend, you are in the third category and as abhorrent as the crime is you deserve everyone's full respect.