Entertainment For Lively Minds
Best Band With the Worst Musicians?
I'm a big believer that there's a thin line between competence and greatness, and some of my favourite bands started out with just a bare degree of recognisable ability but still managed to make wonderful music. I'm thinking here of Orange Juice, Jesus and Mary Chain and Belle and Sebastian. All Glaswegian, and I don't think that's a coincidence. All got better technically over the years, but they each had to change to accommodate their new-found ability, and maybe lost a little bit of charm in the process. But in the early years, they all had a singular vision of what they wanted their music to sound like, and found a way to write very good songs to suit, and their collective threadbare chops were just enough to get that vision across.
So what's the best band with the worst musicians?
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Joy Division
They made their distinctive sound their own.
Yup...
I believe they used to 'rehearse' with Hooky having tippexed the notes on to his fretboard.
The Clash
Think of the progression from their first album to London Calling.
Ramones, think of the progression from their....oh well maybe not!
The Damned, Captain Sensible switched from Bass to Guitar and then they were writing masterpieces like Machine Gun Etiquette and The Black Album.
Topper Headon was pivotal in The Clash's progression.
A real musician who could have played in *anybody's* band. Every great group needs a great drummer.
Agreed on both counts
Topper propelled the rest of the band and that's what made them an exhilarating live experience, circa 1977 anyway. Moreso than the Pistols, who were a shambles in comparison, probably because they didn't get to play much; nobody would have them, lest we forget.
The QI siren goes off as I nominate
The Sex Pistols.
Paul Cook can drum a bit but Sid's bass playing? And Steve Jones' early guitar playing? They still made a handfull of brilliant singles, although there were (I'm sure unfounded) rumours about other musicians being involved...
The Monkees
Even after they started playing on their own records, they still sounded great.
The Rolling Stones
Although they always had a couple of 'proper' musos on speed-dial, which is helpful.
Host of Punk/New Wave Bands
Many of these bands started with "questionable" proficiency throughout their members (first thought examples: Clash, Damned, Sex Pistols, Stiff Little Fingers, Madness, Undertones)
Apocraphyl Stories/Urban Myths:
Undertones: "Why are you playing the same chord shape throughout Teenage Kicks", "Is there another way of playing it then?"
Madness: Around 1984/85 (I think?) Lee Thompson apparently had to re-learn every Sax part he'd ever played because it was in the wrong key
Clash: Paul Simonen learning the bass with the application of stickered dots on the fretboard
Stiff Little Fingers: When the first album was transcribed, the songs contained a large amount of flats, sharps, sevenths and other chords the band had no idea how to play
The more you do stuff, the better you get, and this is certainly true of all the above (and others).
Although, sometimes when proficiency took over, exuberance & "passion" were reduced.
Making the right noise was more important than playing the right notes
The Small Faces & The Who
I know, you're probably thinking 'what? What's he on?' but go back and listen to their early works. They were brilliant, but not technically the best players around at the time. Made a wonderful noise, much in the same way The Clash did around the time of their first album. But listen to some of the guitar work for instance on the early Small Faces tracks, or Townshend trying to be a lead guitarist on the My Generation album. Scrappy is probably the word for it.
They both had hugely recognisable sounds, with great big trademarks - like Moony's drumming and that organ sound that underpins Marriot's voice (and what a voice, surely the reason the Small Faces sound so good), and that's what I guess makes the scrappier bands work - a real identity.
I find this a little surprising
not in terms of what you are saying about faces/who, but the fact that Shel Talmy was in the habit of using session musicians wherever needed - so you'd think the playing would be pretty smooth?
One 60s guitarist that I recently met told me that when he and his band went to London to record, 'Big Jim and Little Jim' were in the studio to cover the session. 'So, Shel Talmy was the producer, then?', I asked - 'How did you know?' was his surprised response -it goes without saying really.
Velvet Underground is the obvious one
They can barely play together properly, Mo's drumming is a joke... but but but... it just seems to work, doesn't it?
The song Heroin pretty much falls to pieces through musical incompetence, but seems all the more powerful and driven for it.
Cale, the retuning hero
Except that John Cale is perhaps the most 'trained' musician in rock music. He'd studied with LaMont Young dontyouknow. Which is odd, as I'm fairly sure I could play the Viola riff from 'Venus in Furs' (I'm not a Viola...ist)
REM
Don't get me wrong, I love REM, but they are not virtuoso players. They embody all the strengths of being a band.
Velvets underrated
Sorry Stephen, I think you're wrong. The Velvets sound great together - the relentless high-speed rhythm guitars, the nifty bass lines, the fast and slow/stop-start songs and Mo holding it all together with her metronomic drumming.
I don't think the production on their studio LPs does them any favours and they deliberately sound rough and ready on songs like Sister Ray.
But you can't measure good musicianship is terms of twiddly 10-minute guitar solos or, even worse, drum solos across the whole kit.
The Velvets could play and few could do what they did.
I know what you mean
But I think we'll have to agree to differ!
Yes yes I know John Cale was apparently a "classically-trained" musician (although I hate that phrase!) and as an ensemble they were truly awesome sounding. BUt I was talking more about the actual technical ability on display on their records: there's really not much.
Ok, a comparison:
- Sister Ray compared to (say) The Stranglers' Walk On By: both long-form chunky songs with hammond solos: but Sister Ray is just hamfisted (a basic riff, a barely-there drumbeat, and single note keyboard runs) where Walk On By is more muso-ish (the guy can actually play the keyboard: jazzy grace notes, etc).
I love the Velvet Underground, but I truly think the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Yes, few did what they did, and yes I prefer them to more "accomplished" contemporaries like Soft Machine etc. (And, for the record, I prefer Sister Ray to Walk On By)
I concede that I might be missing the point of this thread, but I still don't think the Velvet Underground were very "competent" musicians. What do you think?
The First rule of rock...
is, the same as the first rule of football.
'At any level, get yourself a decent goalkeeper or else you are going nowhere'
Replace 'Goalkeeper' with 'Drummer'.
Unless you are The Velvet Underground.
Hang on, Ive changed my mind. this a thread!
Meg White
must be the exception to the rule then.
Alumnus of the Drummers School ...
... for Hitting Things.
And does it very well, within the scope of the White Stripes sound.
I'd like to nominate...
... Half Man Half Biscuit.
What's this? A Word thread with no mention of HJH yet?
Ringo Starr wasn't the best drummer in the world was he?
Mind you he wasn't the best drummer in the Beatles either.
I'm here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress etc etc etc......
David Byrne...
...wanted Talking Heads to sound like James Brown; what a beautiful failure that was for a while.
But didn't Tina Weymouth improve fast!
She was clearly a quick 'study'/learner.
great rubbishness
Now no impeachment of the Man in Black's skills but:
On Johnny Cash and Joe Strummer's version of Redemption Song both of them are all over the shop musically - almost comically so. But it's utterly brilliant and uplifting all the same.
The Track that always cracks me up
is 'One Too Many Mornings', where His Bobness and Cash take alternate verses in different key, probably due to Cash's limited range (or Bob's maybe)?
Primal Scream
With the exception of the Give Out era when they pretended quite well to be a tight white soul outfit.... have always been a shockingly average group of musicians (plus Mani) well packaged.