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australians and kiwis
Just listened to the (excellent) Smile podcast where at the end of it they go into a discussion of the Rugby. I think David, in reference the the rivalry across the Tasman, refers to the dislike of Australians and New Zealanders towards each other ."..a level we can't really comprehend" or words to that effect.
I don't think that's right. Rivalry yes, constant banter, nay sledging. But I dont think a genuine dislike of each other. When the going gets tough I think there is a solidarity that goes back to the ANZACs. The massive level of migration temporary and permanent reinforces the argument that we do in fact get on.
Sport of course is different , petty cultural debates like the invention of pavlova etc. But these are small things.Nothing like the French and the English which appears, from the outside, to be a deep seated and genuine antipathy towards each other.
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It's the sort of solidarity where
Australians will insult (and I assume, be abused by) New Zealanders to an extraordinary level, but if any other nationality dares to take a swipe, we will jump to the defence of our cousins across the Tasman.
And of course, all right-thinking antipodeans are united in their dislike of the English and French on the sporting field. This is as it should be.
You're right of course.
The recent tragedies in our respective countries (the earthquake here, the floods over the creek in Queensland) have shown that when it comes down to it, we all like to have a bit of a go at each other over various sporting follies, and disputed ownership of various icons (Australia can have Russel Crowe - we don't really want him, but we'd like to take Split Enz back if that's ok).
However, when the proverbial hits the fan, we get together and help each other without thinking about it. The standing ovation the Australian Police received when arriving at Christchurch airport to help with the body recovery operation was a real "no honestly, I've got something in my eye" moment.
I agree
But it felt at the time that as though arguing the opposite point of view wouldn't make for terribly entertaining listening, making me sound like some kind of "actually, I think you'll find..." pedant, so I let it pass. The relationship is very largely affectionate, even with Quade Cooper. He might have been booed every time he touched the ball, but he was mobbed whenever he had public engagements during the tournament, and received a standing ovation when he was carted off injured in the bronze medal match.
so Fraser
If you had to lose the Cup - who would you have preferred?
France
England
Australia
South Africa
I'm getting the impression it would be anyone but the aussies whereas I think Australians would say anyone but the Poms.
Not at all
I think the Aussies were the team NZ feared most, that's all. Of the four you list I'd choose England first, just - I live here, after all - then Australia over the others.
But Australia does have a minor obsession with beating NZ
as if a population of 21 million has something to prove to a small country of about four million bipeds and sixty million sheep (Oh bugger! And I was trying not to stereotype).
From the local coverage of the Sydney olympics:
Sheep!
I wouldn't use the words 'sheep' and 'bugger' in the same post when talking about New Zealand. I'm sure the locals are quite fed up with such references by now! Oh bugger! I've just gone and made things worse!
# if you pick on one, then you pick on two #
I haven't heard the podcast yet but if the OP's take on things is right, then David Hepworth's analysis is way off-beam. Tempers may flare when the banter goes a bit overboard, but no more than that. No hatred.
Most of us with family will attest to their unique ability to push your buttons/get under your skin/wind you up. If you witness an immense in-family bickering session, you may assume that relations were terminally broken - but often the reverse is true. This is a bit like how it is with Kiwis and Aussies, I think.
In recent times I have been very impressed by the dignity shown by Australian sports people when they have been at the wrong end of a result. For comedy reasons, you want them to be crying and blaming the ref and flouncing off - but they never do.
That's absolutely right.
I first noticed this new-found dignity during the 2003 RWC final, as the "Qantas Wallabies" were (deservedly) beaten by Martin Johnston's Rosbifs.
I was in Melbourne in the most one-eyed of rowdy rugby pubs. Rather than riots, burning the ref in effigy and howls of anguish, the Aussies were entirely gentlemanly in defeat, much talk of the better side winning, and no oafish complaints.
Has this, I wonder, contributed to the general slide in competitiveness of Australia's national teams?
to be fair to Mr H
it was an off the cuff incidental remark ,not the main theme of conversation
It's Rugby FGS
Who cares?
some of us
obviously
From what I've observed
From my Antipodean dwarfish refereeing chum:
No problem with New Zealand, or the population thereof.
Hates, with a burning the passion the *expletive deleted* cheating *expletive deleted* sheep shagging *expletive deleteds* who play rugby for that nation.
Much the same way I view England. Love the country, love many of the people. I'll support ANYONE before I support them
even america
?
Wellll
Yes. Anyone.
It's like a family relationship as someone said up there
Australia is forever the big brother who can't stand to lose to the younger one, and the younger is never going to give up trying to beat the older one.
I do get tired of the endless sheep jokes, and headlines in the press about fush and chups - somehow bagging the Kiwis bypasses the racial sensitivities shown to other nations. Which probably proves that none of us really mind.
Sometimes they're funny too. The first joke-at-the-expense-of-Kiwis I heard when I first arrived in Australia 30 odd years ago was - how do you spot the New Zealander in a shoe shop? He's the one with a hard-on next to the ugg boots.
I can call my momma a fat ho, but you, you better look out
My Dad was in Indonesia during the Confrontation in the 60s. The Australian soldiers would get paid once a fortnight, out of step with when the Kiwis were paid so my old man became mates with some Maori boys so that between them there would be money coming in every week. All the better to keep on the squirt, you see.
The locals had had experience of Gurkhas before and were justifiably terrified of them. The bonus of hanging around the Kiwi mob for Dad was that the locals were convinced the Maoris were Gurkhas - just really big ones. Really big ones.
The nonstop idiocy these characters got up to is the best insight into the local-derby-style rivalry between the two nations I can think of.
Fucking morons, really, happy to beat the shit out of each other until something better comes along, and then, look out.
As a Brit living in Australia -
I agree that AUS/NZ relations are generally very good -
just as long as you avoid the subject of whether Crowded House are an Australian or a Kiwi band...
How about this
I'll go 50/50
Split Enz - Kiwi
Crowded House - Australian
and seeing it was Countdown that really made Split Enz and I don't think they could get arrested back home; it's a agueement we shouldn't really start.
Do remember that Rugby Union
is almost a religion in NZ, where-as it comes a long way third (after Aussie Rules and Rugby League) in football popularity in Australia. Also, Union in NZ is played by all whereas it's really only NSW and QLD that play Union here, and it is very much a private-school (UK Public School) sport here. The stripe of Rugby followed is a reasonably accurate social indicator in Australia.
I think you'll find
That RaRa is quite a big deal in ACT and WA.
Since the recent influx of
South Africans into WA I'm sure that's true.
England v France
I'm not so sure about the emnity between the English and the French these days. I genuinely don't ever hear anyone talk about it. Most people I know, despite having gone through the prolonged and savage ordeal of the French exchange, rarely mention the French. However, my boss lived in Paris for a while and said that there is genuine and real hatred towards the English.
Everyone hates us though, don't they?
I've Always Felt welcome In France
Just like anywhere else. The Parisians are seen as arrogant and unfriendly by most of the rest of France, just as Londoners are by most of the rest of the UK. Of course, this is a huge generalisation but with a kernel of truth.
I'd agree
My v limited experience of France on a dozen or so trips around the north was that the locals are extremely hospitable and friendly, but I haven't been to Paris.
On the other hand I did have to point out to my Norwegian mates why England has so many countries apparently at daggers drawn...look at where they are and remember all the wars (France, Germany, Spain, Italy) history (Ireland, Wales, Scotland)..... That said, I've never had anything but a good time in any of those places too. As long as I avoided the English tourists on the costa del sol. I think we're pretty much over the vikings aren't we ?
The stories my kiwi mates tell me of the relationship with the local maoris when they were at school is truly frightening. Probably not representative either.
French and English
I worked in France for 6 years and found the French to be nothing but welcoming and warm towards the English. The politicians spar because the French genuinely believe their philosophy towards nation building is the best, and the English don't accept it. Viz recent spats with Sarko and Cameron. But at normal people level I never saw a problem.
Tell you what though. We bought a little house in the French countryside and the field is used by a local farmer. I asked him if he'd been concerned when he heard English people were buying it. He said "not at all, we were worried Parisians might buy it"!
I disagree. A bit.
Australian colleague of mine says the worst year of her life was a posting to NZ. She took the anti-Aussie jibes and sneers in good humour at first, but says that it just never let up. There was a real chip on shoulder resentment against Aussies she reckoned, kind of like the rest-of-NZ vs Auckland only much worse. Here in Sydney I don't notice any particular strong feeling about Kiwis - but then Sydney is a melting pot of so many national groups that I think the fush and chups brigade just don't stand out. And of course Australia likes to claim many NZ successes as their own - Crowded House being one example.
There used to be a running joke
that half of the New Zealand population aged between 20 and 30 was living in Sydney & Melbourne and signing on the dole.
on the french
My parents were in Paris and had a photo taken in front of the Eiffel tower. This was in the early nineties I think .
Dad got chatting ( in some fashion ) with the photographer, who after a bit ,said "oh australian , not English".He then applied the fixer to the photo they had paid for.
Scots
It does seem sometimes that the Scots (generalisation alert) really hate the English, and also I don't think this is reciprocated. Most English people seem to respect the Scots for their hard work, intelligence, military prowess, toughness. You'd never find an English pub full of Englishmen wearing the football shirt of whoever is playing Scotland. Shame, but there it is. Having said that one of my best friends is Scottish and I don't think think he hates me. You never know.
I find that hilarious though
I remember when England beat Argentina in the 2002 World Cup, we were stood next to this Scottish bloke, on his own in an Argentina shirt in a pub in London. He actually cried at full time.
Mind you, when we went on a stag do to Edinburgh, at least half of the group were composed of a Welsh rugby team. Their behaviour was so appalling in so many ways that are too lurid to go into on these genteel pages, that the hotel staff were moved to comment 'Jesus - we used to hate the English, but this lot are far, far worse'.
Hold them horses
Just an observation (and sweeping generalization): Scots don't hate "the English".
What many do is hate the England teams in many sports. It's a small, but really important difference.
Yes
A hatred which is largely driven, in my experience at least, by an understandable irritation at having to listen to piss-poor partisan commentary that is sent to all parts of the UK (primarily on the football, but also in evidence on ITV's coverage of the rugby world cup).
The reason the English and the French...
...rub each other up the wrong way is that both nations have a misplaced sense of their own superiority.
But
I like that in the French.
Less so in the English, but that's my don't-make-a-fuss Englishness coming to the fore. It's the brash ones that get noticed, though.
Don't agree
Ask the average French person if they are proud of their country and what its values are, they'll be able to tell you. I'd say the vast majority of English people sneer then not have a clue. Mention patriotism here and the immediate assumption is you're a member of the BNP.
Unlike
the Americans, the Belgians, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the......
*drones on*
the Brazilians, the Vanuatans, the Ukrainians, the....
*more droning*
.... and don't get me started on the ......
*inflammatory droning now, as the novelty has worn off*
... they're all a bunch of (Ed. Cut!)
Russell Crowe
is of course well-known as an egotistical pain in the ass all over the world.
In Australia, if he chucks a telephone at a hotel employee, he is the "New Zealand-born actor".
If however he wins an Oscar, it's one for Australia.
Nuff said
My ex-next door neighbour, a Kiwi, was chatting
with me a day or two before his return to the antipodes. He was off to take over as advertising manager for a number of small NZ radio stations, having done the same thing over here for Eddie Shoestring's employers for a number of years.
"You know the one about the Kiwi who emigrated to Oz, don't you?" he asked.
"No, Steve, tell me more." I replied.
"Simultaneously raised the average IQ of both nations." came the deadpan reply, followed a couple of seconds later by a big grin.
I think the last word on all this was Terry Collier's
Start at 8:10
Joke
Proudly showing off his newly-leased downtown apartment to a couple of friends late one night, a drunk Kiwi led the way to his bedroom where there was a big brass gong hanging on the wall.
'What's that big brass gong for?' one of the friend's asked.
'Issss nod a gong. Issss a talking Australian clock' he drunkenly replied.
'A talking Australian clock - seriously?'
'Yup.' 'Hmmm (hic).'
'How's it work?' the second friend asked, squinting at it.
'Just watch' he said.
He picked up a hammer, gave the gong an 'ear-shattering bash' and stepped back.
His three mates stood looking at one another for a moment in astounded silence.
Suddenly, an Australian voice from the other side of the wall screamed,
'For fuck's sake, you stupid Kiwi prick. It's ten past three in the fucking morning!!!’