...yes: this is it!

I think there's always room, certainly in relatively affluent areas, for a quality coffee shop, and your angle on it seems pretty focused. Where I live, there's a short shopping street a few mins walk away which seems to support an incredibly high percentage (against other retailers) of eateries - one greasy spoon, one old-style tea room, one evening restaurant/daytime cafe, three yummy-mummy high-end coffee shops (always busy) plus two chip shops and three chinese/pizza take-aways. Staggering.

that said, there have been repeated attempts to open a fourth yummy-mummy coffee shop on the street and they all seem to close quite quickly, so every area must indeed have a saturation point.

It sounds like your area does have room for your concept. Coffee shops, of all retail businesses, seem pretty recession proof. The ship may indeed be sinking but we're all going to have a jolly good cappucino before it goes down.

But remember the first rule of (baking) business: you can't have your cake and eat it too!

Sounds great. I have similar ideas for Hitchin, where we have the big chains and a few scabby cafes but nothing in the middle. Somewhere as you describe with free wifi, quality grub, good atmosphere, maybe the odd bit of live music - why not!

Where I used to live in St. Albans there was/is a place called The Breakfast Club which charges top dollar, old leather sofas, very family friendly, and it is permanently rammed. It's not city centre either.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=st.+albans+cafe&fb=1&gl=uk...

Another place in St. A which is really popular was set up by a guy who decided there was nowhere in the town to get a decent cup of coffee, so he thought he'd open one. No child play area, but tip top quality coffee, nibbles etc.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=st.+albans+cafe&fb=1&gl=uk...

One observation - I hear two businesses in what you say. I'd suggest focussing on the cafe and when that is rocking, go on line. Just doing one of those would be hard graft. Two simultaneously would be very tough.

For research, I think you'll find that the people running successful versions of what you have in mind will be all to happy to tell you a few war stories if you arrange a chat in a quiet moment to pick their brains. Possibly not your future competition though! Are there blogosphere type fora where they talk about it? Is there a trade press? Marketing on an ongoing basis is key too - Twitter, website, blog etc, but you know all that. I think the point there is that these things are not differentiators any more, they are table stakes. Anyone trying to launch a consumer business without them would be mad.

Re capital, always a problem...but the key thing there is to be business like, have a good business case, well presented, with above all a good grasp of the cost base, realistic ideas about margins and overall turnover.

Whether to do it now...why not - decent coffee and scran is something you'll never be able to get over the internet. You have to go somewhere to get it!

We could have a Mingle at Bobs?

...the crucial ingredient that a number of otherwise fine establishments often lack is quality service. Getting and retaining good staff is the key. There's a family owned cafe near my workplace which I frequent most days and the owners foster a really nice cameraderie among their staff (mostly part-timers, students etc) - it seems to make a difference to the whole vibe of the place. Plus the fact that it does terrific coffee and made on the premises organic food (terrific soup, cakes etc).

The one caveat to going down the yummy mummy route is that a lot of screaming kids can put off non parents.

The worry is, something will have to give.

where your cage got a bit rattled Bob - and it occurs to me that occasional spilling over into bad temper is a proverbially essential route to building up a loyal clientele in the restaurant business! Good luck with this if you do pursue it, I've been a quarter of a century or more on the treadmill and much as I do interesting work I would love to jack it in.

just a reminder that no matter what your tastes, interests or desires this is all about money. Sorry to be a killjoy, but a cafe is a quick way to lose all your savings if you do it wrong - same as any business.
Don't spend a penny you don't have to. Don't spend the profits. Don't buy anything because "it would be great" - buy it because it will make you money. Be prepared for sleepless nights and gits at the bank who will not support you when you need it, and offer pointless loans when you don't. Be prepared to lose you passion for food, and still turn up. It is a job (unless you can afford to have it as a hobby, in which case set a limit on how much it is allowed to lose each year).
Think about how much you need to live on, and how many cakes you have to sell to make that. Remember when people say "that was the best cake ever" they probably mean "that was the biggest slice of cake ever" - and that is not a good thing. Portion control is essential. You can sell 8 or 12 wedges of a cake for £1 each - but one way you make £4 more.
Insure yourself up to the hilt. And then some. Kiddies break and you do not want to lose your house over a fall from the climbing frame.
Talk to other people who have done the same. Those that failed (my brother in law - the bank wanted there money back after 1 year rather than 10), and those who have succeeded. See if there was any difference. Schmooze the local media.
Oh and I agree with Twang - one business at a time.

And good luck. Working for yourself it great. Some of the time. Dreadful the rest. But on balance great.

The other minefield is the local council. There are rules for bloody everything from kitchen cleanliness to whether you can have tables on the pavement. Assume nothing. However, based on some work I did in local government, they actually want to help. Find out who is the Environmental Health person and arrange to see them to pick their brains. Find out if there are any other licences, permits, approvals etc that you need from them, well in advance of taking on premises as you may not be allowed to do some of what you plan due to escape routes, fire doors etc. All dull dull dull but problems which can be avoided by anticipating them.

Had a bit about some people doing this in Cambridge, taking over an existing, failed bakery.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/nov/11/fitzbillies-tim-haywa...

Could be educational.

I suggest a visit to my neck of the woods. It is basically a high street full of independent businesses frequented by yummys while their hockey playing lawyer hubbies go to work.
A new place has just opened in the last two months that is aimed straight at them and it is doing very well despite the presence of other established coffee shops and cafes.

A good model (as far as the customer is concerned anyway, I have no idea if they're making money) is this place in Tonbridge Wells. It was rammed when we visited.
http://www.pigwidgeonandpye.com/

before you start.
- Go and visit all sorts of areas and have a look at places, see what other independents are like. You may want to copy or adapt something which you like or you might see or experience things which you dislike and hadn't thought of.
- Think about where you would want to be located on the street, near what sort of shops etc.
- Parking, transport etc.
- Who are you trying to attract ? It's quite a trick to have an eatery that has a broad range and speaking as one who likes to have a quiet cuppa reading paper or book, this should be encouraged.

For purely selfish reasons, a proper jukebox would be good and counter seats like in US diners because they seem to encourage 'social engagement' (i.e, talking to strangers).

Getting money out of banks, no bloody idea but good luck. (On unrelated note, went to bank today to both ask teller to change some coins and deposit. The poor girl couldn't count out 7 x 10p, they had to be weighed). As I say, good luck with the banks.

Ironically given we are all music nuts I have very mixed thoughts about music in cafes. If I want music I'll listen to my iPod. if there is loud music playing in a cafe I won't go in at all. Ditto elevator piped music. Very tricky. I incline towards better not to have any personally. Having lived in Paris where you never get music in cafes, the sound of happy punters nattering and partaking of the excellent fare is much more convivial than some ghastly album the manager just bought.

http://www.urbancoffee.co.uk/

Principally coffee shops (certainly the Church Street one near my office is) but with an interesting approach to selling coffee and keeping the place busy.

As well as music Friday (to my shame I've not yet been to one) and songwriting Sunday there is also a book club/exchange and, interestingly, a knitting group. Although Church Street is in the business district of Birmingham city centre, and consequently quite quiet at weekends, the last time I tried to pop in for a coffee on Saturday morning the place was absolutely rammed and ringing to the click click of knitting needles. My gob was truly smacked.

The staff are great - friendly and efficient, and theres always an ipod on the go. It's a great place.

I think the way forward is independent, quality, service and a general offering that is a bit different to the mainstream, but not too wacky.

Good luck and mine is a nice cup of Kopi Luwak.

...couldn't agree more Bob. the place I frequent on Saturdays is very disorganised on that front - they seem to allow staff a lot of leeway on this, like a CD player in a sixth form common room. Some of the stuff played is just not appropriate for a good customer experience. A cafe REALLY shouldn't be a 'listen to how great my musical taste is' thing from staff or indeed owner (I've known some owners who saw their premises as a giant 'Jukebox Me'). Inoffensive background music contributes much more than one would imagine. And you can always make it 'Kind Of Blue' by Miles Davis if you don't want pure muzak...

but always from the supplier side. However, it does mean that I am in and out of cafes, pubs and restaurants all day. As Colin H mentions above the one thing that will keep people coming back (and get them to recommend you) is good service. The customer is always right, even when he's wrong is a catering cliche but it is true. You have to develop a thick skin. You have to love giving good service and giving your customers a good experience. I notice when it is done badly all the time. I notice when it is done well very rarely because it is rarely done well. Example: London hotel, 2 days ago. Waiter service in the lounge. 4 of us chilling a on a Saturday afternoon before Alison Krauss at The Festival Hall. An hour and a half? The girls will do 3 glasses of wine, my mate and I will do 3 pints. Wrong. We get completely ignored. I go up to the bar to ask for a drink. "Take a seat sir. Someone will be with you shortly." "And why do you think that will be the case? I've been sat right under your nose for 20 minutes and no one has been anywhere near me." I tell him we were about to order 3 bottles of Dom Perignon at £280 a throw and we leave. Contrast with Dublin Hotel recently. 4 of us, table service. 1st drinks being consumed within 2 minutes of sitting down. Not once did a glass get emptied before someone cheerily asking "Same again?". 2 hours, 5 drinks each, nice big bill and a fat tip. Not difficult, is it? Well, apparently it is because the second example is such a rarity. Get your staff-training and your service right and you've got half a chance. Without it the best product in the world is pointless.

On thing all American waiters and waitresses do is maintain eye contact with the customers at all times, so if your coffee cup is empty, you drop a spoon or raise a hand to order something, they are THERE, like a shot. Hardly happens here. You could stand on the table and sing Hey Jude and they'd try to ignore you in some places. Requires little training but for some reason doesn't happen anything like enough.

it's because, in general, taking pride in giving good service is not in our blood. People who work in bars and cafes are viewed as doing 'menial' jobs. In the U.S it's almost a vocation!

Can offer you three independent coffee shops (and a recently opened Costa) in and around the High Street. One majoring on the organic vibe, one French and one that took over a friend's hardware shop when they relocated and turned it into a cafe with evening programme of music (very Word vibe).

Another piece of market research - two do a thriving trade around a Primary School (ours) with parents in the morning and kids and parents in the afternoon. Secondaries are useless but being near/opposite a good primary will stand you in good stead.

And a sandwich shop recently opened with the unpromising name of Razzles....

In a little parade of shops. Always been there as other businesses have opened and closed. Not cheap, but always clean and friendly with pretty waitresses and decent home-made stickies and sarnies. They do good, steady business through the day. I'm on nodding terms with the owner and he says that the key is to redecorate regularly to keep everything fresh and now he only employs Eastern European girls who, to his mind, do customer service so much better than yer average Pomey lass. And tend to be prettier.

It should also be noted that he needs to do good business to pay for the divorce after his wife found out that he was knobbing one of said waitresses..

Another friend of mine has recently purchased a legendary Southsea cafe (the tenth hole) and he can't believe how much money it generates.

A magazine, a website, a podcast, a cafe in Staines....

A little goes a long way and a lot goes even further.
When I had my bar it certainly wasn't the customer service that led to its downfall.
We would always ask people to take a seat and take the drinks to the table if staffing levels allowed. We hated saying no to cocktail requests and would be seen regularly running between the bar and the shops to get the required ingredients. We purchased songs on itunes to play people's requests. These could come on a Saturday night or from a conversation on a Tuesday afternoon. 79p is not much to get that repeat trade. And it ALWAYS worked.
We would also buy in a couple of bottles of cheapish butterscotch liquer and would give it away on busy nights and again, they always came back with more friends and spent more.

It all creates a buzz, an atmosphere that is purely yours and that's what keeps 'em coming back for more.

(but not too near) who run something on the lines of what you want to and ask them what lessons they learned. Also who are their suppliers - could you use them? Could you negotiate a combined deal with them?. There are two or three such places in Reading for example. One is Workhouse coffee who really do knock out fantastic coffee. Go and see what they do, what you like and talk to the owners. People actually like giving advice (look at this thread for a start).

And get good suppliers - and make sure you treat them right.

I went into business for myself ten years ago, one of the best things I ever did, but one piece of advice which I give to anyone who asks me for some, and I give to you...
Do not, under any circumstance, fuck with HMRC.

and a friend has run a cafe for the last two. Neither of us could make a decent living at it although I'm sure others do.
My place had no passing trade and it was impossible to get the stock of the most perishable items right so waste was a problem. My friend has recently given up as she was fed up working such long hours for little reward. Her problem is overheads and although the cafe was well used she was never able to take a proper wage.
In short, location is key and hoping you will generate enough income to survive without a proper business plan is unwise. Good luck but be prepared for long hours, six days a week at least unless you can afford to get some help.

Terrific organic cafe/deli/grocery near me. Think it's on your lines. Nice folks might give you some advice @LevertonHalls

Know why you're doing it - it's usually either as a lifestyle business for the foreseeable future to pay yourself a decent wage; or a plan to establish it, build it up and sell in say 5 years. Deciding that first will affect the decisions you make day by day.

Write a plan and test every decision against the plan - that helps you stay focused rather than always acting on impulse, unless you want to of course, but at least you know when you are...

Be creative with your marketing - create a buzz locally by holding special events - eg wine-tasting, local cheese tasting etc

A recession is a great time to start a business - making it work now will put you in good shape for the upswing...

Good luck with it

I note your comments about kids Bob, and I have to agree. It is possible to have a tot-friendly establishment without it being a deafening McDonald's playground.

NZ cafes tend to do this kind of thing quite well. There is often a play area that toddlers can, er, toddle in and high chairs are numerous, clean and offered willingly. Paper cups and free water, "fluffies" with marshmallows and a good, basic kids menu also goes down well.

The owner of a particularly good one near where I live cites the coffee groups for (mainly) mums as quite lucrative on the quieter weekday mornings and if you get the nod from some of those groups on a regular basis, you're laughing.

...I think you should call it 'Covered.'

"I went to this wonderful little cafe yesterday."
"Oh really? Where?"
"Staines."
"What's it called?"
"'Covered.'"
"Oh really? 'Covered.' In Staines. Hmm..."

but is worth mmentioning to a man with a young family is that it will take up a HELL of a lot of your time and life including your weekends and evenings. I wish you the very best with it if you decide to go for it though. And I dare you to call it 'The Bevis Frond' :-)

Need someone to bake cakes for you? ;-)

Seriously, it's a fab idea and if you decide to run with it, I'll have everything crossed that it's a big success. Xx

if your coffee shop is tucked round some quiet corner, forget it. If your coffee shop is on a main street unoccupied with too much credible competition you stand some kind of chance. Indeed a business arrived at through the idea "I'd like to do one of those!" rather than the more sensible.. "here's a spare space on a good street that needs one of those" is less likely to succeed. Seen it happen too many times before.

Small businesses like this fail probably more than 60% of the time. Motivation has to be in the right place, more practical than idealistic. The learning process for those starting such businesses is a sharp one. For a "high end" keeping an eye on quality (of everything including the interior, cleanliness, and staff, as well as the most obvious things like the quality of the product) is also a hard and somewhat laborious job. And not one for lazy people.

just now, I've nothing to add except to reiterate all the points people have made, and to say that it will be very disappointing if 'Coffee Staines' remains only a dream. Oh, and hasn't this been a good-natured exchange of ideas and constructive criticism? Well done, the Massive.

It's this kind of sharing thread that makes this place!

Only I've just booked my flight to Heathrow and I'll be arriving right around teatime as it happens. A nice cuppa and a fairy cake would go down a treat after a long haul flight.

Hey Bob,

I've was going down the same road as you after quitting my job one day after one straw too many. Anywho I found a really really good book called "Start & Run a Sandwich & Coffee Shop (Small Business Start Ups)".

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Start-Sandwich-Coffee-Small-Business/dp/18452833...

It's really really good, breaks everything down into essentials and gives rough prices for what you will need. It's a very easy read and the author is available for a chat (they now have 3 successful cafes for a standing start of no previous experience).

If you would like my copy pm me and I'll send it too Bob towers free of charge!

Btw, I ended up going into I.T. consulting, but always wonder what could of been, would love vicariously live me dreams through a medium called Bob!

I think we've got a name and a catchphrase for Bob's emporium:

MEDIUM BOB'S - SMALL PRICES, MASSIVE SLICES

Just searched this thread for the word "footfall" and I seem to be the 1st to mention it.

If you've got no footfall, e.g. no passing trade, your cafe will have hard times.

Just ask the struggling cafe round the corner from my house, in deepest Midlands suburbia, with very little passing trade.

Location location location innit.

of any consumer good. The majority of Restaurants make money solely on a huge markup on alcohol sales. Of course, when you go into a restaurant and think 'Fucking hell, 20 quid for a piece of salmon, they must be raking it in, I should have a go at this' However, the majority of failed businesses are food businesses.

This is because, typically, cafes and delis are started by food lovers, who assume the point is to serve/sell good food. Thats not the point at all. The point of any business is to make money.

I've been involved in two food startups.

The first was a coalition of wealthy-ish middle aged guys who thought ' It would be lovely to have a decent restaurant in our town' and got together to convert an old church into a bistro. They popped in every night for a glass of wine, it was lovely. Meanwhile all the temp waiters were going home every night with six bottles of merlot in their bags. Lasted 9 months.

On the other hand, my auntie June started a little cafe flogging tea, bacon sandwiches and scones to the elderly hoi-polloi of Blyth. She had 3 cafes after five years, and retired after 10. You have to understand your market, and understand it's hard work, is what I'm saying.

Fascinating thread.

I have no experience of cafe's other than sitting in them. So if you need anyone to test floor loading regulations I'd be happy to come along and sit down for a while.

Can't promise I would be able to keep the 'Wahaay!' noises and armpit farts under control however. But then who can?

Has a potential name been chosen for this establishment?

I've had so many offers of help and advice, and this thread will be invaluable if I can ever persuade the FPO that this might be a flyer. Thanks to all and sundry, both here and on Twitter, who have offered far more help and support than I could've hoped for.

You guys are great, seriously.

You'll need experience so get a job in a cafe even if only for a short while.
I used to run a pub, and from a romantic view its the best job in the world, on the other hand its a slog.
If you've got the passion, and I think you have, go for it!

I run a restaurant/coffee shop (and live music venue) with my Dad. It's absolutely fantastic - I really love my job. I can't imagine doing anything else, however...
The hours are long - for crap money. Don't expect to earn as much per hour as you pay your staff! (easily 50hrs a week - and often 7 days a week even though we don't open Sundays, there's always something to be done)
Don't expect any holidays - finding someone you trust to look after your baby is not easy. My Dad didn't have a holiday for years and years.
Customers are crazy, horrible, mean, dirty, rude and always right! Loyal customers are worth their weight in gold, we're very lucky with ours. I've known some of them all my life!

On the music front - I understand where people are coming from but if I didn't have music playing I'd go stark raving bonkers. I totally treat it as my personal jukebox. I'm not listening to "inoffensive background" all my life. A little bit of Explosions in the Sky with your coffee, Drive By Truckers with your breakfast never hurt anyone.

I love the idea of a quality cafe / deli which is child friendly. Very continental. I wish you all the best if you proceed Bob.

Environmental Health will be your biggest immediate concern... when you open they will descend on you like a swarm of self serving nasty locusts, armed with collar name tags and a bad attitude.
Now how to deal with them effectively is this, and trust me on this one.
About one week before you open, call them and ask them to visit your premises to give you "advice" on where you may be breaking the law. And they will. They will point out to you where you are breaking the law (as they see it), and give you said advice on how to to counteract this. Do what they ask you to do and invite them AGAIN to inspect the premises say, about two weeks after you have opened, and ask for more advice.
In my experience they will give the advice freely (and also free!), and they will view you as being cooperative, which is very very important.
If you don't do this, on their first visit they will serve you with umpteen Improvement Notices, many of which will concern legislation that you will have no idea of, many of it pertaining to your psrticular local council.You will also be given a timescale in which to comply to Improvement Notices, sometimes an impossibly tight schedule.
Oh, and the defense of "I never knew that" is no defense whatsoever..they will quote the legal mantra: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse".
And it ain't.
Finally, do as they say, no matter how much it may stick in the throat.
If you get into a pissin' contest with them there will only be one winner, and it won't be you.
And remember... do not ever ever fuck with HMRC!