Entertainment For Lively Minds
ATM: Simon & Garfunkel Imagine documentary = whitewash?
Posted by bogl on 10 November 2011 - 12:04am.
Nice enough doc, interviews with lots of key people, but one thing never got mentioned.
Their reasons for breaking up were all brushed over as being artistic differences, but at no point does anyone say there was any friction between them. This was always my understanding, and surely there must have been, even if not exactly blazing rows - or am I wrong?
Anyway, remember them like this
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The film
was the DVD that came with the recent BOTW reissue. It was part of official product so they aren't going to go over all that "why we split\ can't stand each other" stuff for the umpteenth time. I'd rather hear some fresh stories which is what I think we got in the most part
Yentob just filmed an intro as usual and passed it off as all the BBC's own work. Did the same with the U2 film a couple of weeks back. "Imagine" if the BBC actually produced their own arts programmes rather than showing things just released on DVD (Hello George Harrison). Still, saves people a few quid until the January sales.
Same for Nilsson
The Imagibne programme was the film Who Is Harry Nilsson And Why Is Everyone Talking About Him? which I picked up from the US a few months ago.
That's good to know
as I was most annoyed that I hadn't recorded the Imagine about Harry.
Why no mention of "Keep The Customer Satisfied" ?
Yet "So Long Frank Lloyd Wright" and "Song For The Asking" are mentioned.
Strange that
.
.
I remember Paul Simon on Parkinson
admitting he hated the idea that when they played live, people would think because Art was singing BOTW, that he wrote it.
You're right, Nick...
...songwriting requires an Art.... er, hang on...
Always found that strange.
Nobody laboured under the impression that Sinatra or Presley (to name but probably the two most humongous examples but others could include Glen Campbell and Aretha Franklin) wrote the songs that most defined them. Fact is, AG had a wonderfully pure voice which added an extra dimension to Simon's own. Napoleon syndrome ahoy?
S&G
To say they had a complex relationship is an understatement, and there's no tiff like a lover's tiff. Simon's kiss-off to Garfunkel (at one time an architecture student) is two-edged - it can be read (and sung) both as a bitter-sweet au-revoir and a snide dig (listen for Simon's barely audible remark on the fade). That Garfunkel recorded it without knowing (or being told) it was about him is an indication of the deep and not especially harmonious undercurrents in that relationship.
So long, Frank Lloyd Wright.
I can't believe your song is gone so soon.
I barely learned the tune
So soon
So soon.
I'll remember Frank Lloyd Wright.
All of the nights we'd harmonize till dawn.
I never laughed so long
So long
So long.
CHORUS
Architects may come and
Architects may go and
Never change your point of view.
When I run dry
I stop awhile and think of you
So long, Frank Lloyd Wright
All of the nights we'd harmonize till dawn.
I never laughed so long
So long
So long.
(And if I may add an IMHO here; "Bookends" and "Bridge" are as sublime as pop music ever got; astonishing creations. And both born of the tension in that relationship.)
That's all very well,
but Art Garfunkel sounds exactly like Adam West. Compare these two clips,
Adam West
Art Garfunkel
Who chose the cover picture for BoTW?
A friend conjectured that the pose, with Simon's head hiding Garfunkel's mouth, was an indication that Simon would like to silence him.
Or it's just to give Art a big moustache - thanks for that to the Massive member who pointed that out a few weeks ago - I'd never noticed it.
it was roy halee
who says in the fade out 'So long already, Artie!', or words to that effect, according to a rather gleeful Roy Halee himself in the documentary which kicked off this thread (and which I've just watched and enjoyed a lot).
Didn't see this.....
.....but did see the 1969 documentary on BBC Four and it was amazing to see what are essentially 'standards' either in progress or barely two or three years old.
Amazingly, even missed out my favourite track from the 'Bridge' LP, 'Only Living Boy In New York'.
Simply couldn't happen today and even more remarkable if you factor in what else was around.....Beatles, Stones, Hendrix, Dylan, Cohen, Dusty, Joni Mitchell etc. etc.
In 2011, any one of them would easily outclass ALL opposition with their late 60s material, in '69 they were just one of the pack.
Only living boy
(lovely song) underscores the complexity of the relationship as this was also written for Art, written after Garfunkel had flown off to film his role in Catch 22.
I find it hard to believe that he didn't know the song So Long, Frank Lloyd Wright was about him. Presumably the words were put in front of him and he just sang them without thinking. But I do remember a Radio2 documentary many years ago when he spoke about it. He said, with some bitterness something like "I sang the song and the words were directed at me. So the joke's on me. Ha ha ha".
Poor Paul Simon
didn't like Dylan either.
His feelings in the 60's are elequently given by "A Simple Desultory Philippic (Or How I Was Robert McNamara'd into Submission)".
Vast resentment that he, Paul Simon, wasn't acclaimed as the premier poetic voice of his generation led him to be critical of Dylan at every turn. Now he says they are equals. He's still wrong.
Better, schmetter ...
Paul Simon is one of the great songwriters. That should be enough for the guy, but he's a bitter, twisted little fuck. He's like Lou Reed, without the warmth.
But
Philippic is a joke, a parody, nothing but a friendly dig at Dylan.
The one thing people completely miss out Paul Simon both with and without Art is their sense of humour. For instance they wanted to call their 2nd album, "So Young And So Full Of Pain".
Simon was a big fan of Dylan's like other artists of the time but to suggest he wanted the "voice of a generatiuon" tag is ludicrous. Who'd want that? Even Dylan didn't want it.
Well
from what people who knew him in his London folk club phase have said "sense of humour" isn't the phrase that jumps to mind. "Arrogant bastard" and "tune thief" are the phrases that do. Dylan took tunes and put new words to them, Simon took other people's arrangements and put his name to them.
He did it really well, and I have great affection for the S&G albums, but that doesn't make it untrue. Although recent interviews seem to suggest that Martin Carthy has finally forgiven him.
North Country
of Girl From The North Country, as Dylan preferred to call it, was an old English folk tune that he took and claimed as his own - tune and lyrics.
It's got bits
of Scarborough Fair in it, but that's about all.
Unlike Masters of War
No
it's got ALL of North Country which happens to share lyrics with Scarborough Fair.
Unfortunately Trad. is not in a position to sue.
Its Trad, Dad
You need to accept that Paul Simon in a thieving tyke who no one liked and Dylan is a living saint. Then you're allowed in the door.
Do you have a link to a recording of North Country (Trad) ?
as Dylan's song seems to be a modified version of Martin Carthy's take on Scarborough Fair, with the words changed. And IIRC that's Martin Carthy's view as well. And he ought to know - he taught Dylan the song.
My, only moderatly extensive, folk collection is completely devoid of recordings of an older North Country (Trad) - would love to be proved wrong as it's always good to learn a new (old) song.
Ta.
Sorry, I don't
I could refer you to the organiser of a folk club in Chester whom I used to work with some 30 years ago (if he's still alive). It was very easy to start him having an apoplectic fit by suggesting that Dylan had written North Country. I was singing North Country before Bob Dylan had even picked up a guitar.
Only his sentence was nearly twice as f'ing long as that.
Also Roy Harper deliberately attributed it to Trad with his version on his Valentine album. No-one sued. He would also introduce it in concert along the lines of This is a song Bob Dylan stole and I decided to steal it back
Young man is arrogant bastard
hardly news is it? The London folk clique also hated Dylan or anyone who in any way deviated from the narrow left leaning viewpoint of their world.
Dylan still takes people's words without crediting them eg. Love and Theft. Talent borrows, genius steals
That's a cliche
some elements of the London folk scene didn't like Dylan - that's true. But he got to sing at the Singers Club - so he got past Ewan McCColl, and IIRC he also sang at several of the clubs run by Bruce Dunnet - so he can hardly be asaid to have been completely cold shouldered. And Dylan got on well with Martin Carthy by all accounts.
The new folk scene of the 60's spent a certain amount of time mythologising their "struggle" with the old guard - didn't seem to stop them gigging in the old guard's clubs all that much.
Bruce Dunnet?
...I think you might be mistaken, Slick. I interviewed Dunnet about that era and he was vehemently against Bob from day one (unlike, perhaps surprisingly, Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger). Bruce certainly didn't want him playing at the Singers Club, but was overruled by the other two. I think there's a fairly complete list of where Bob played during his Winter 1962/3 visit, and a number of photos (like the famous one at the Singers Club, with Ewan MacColl sitting enraptured, and the blurry images of Bob giggling in a hat with Martin Carthy at The Troubadour) - I'd be surprised if any were clubs run by Dunnet (the Troubadour certainly wasn't).
What was the name of the club\room
that we now have the London mingles, Colin? Above what is now the King And Queen pub in Foley St
Oh, crikey...
...I can recall Martin Carthy listing for me the five or six clubs in the very early days of the London folk scene and the King & queen was one of them but... I'm pretty sure he just mentioned it as 'The King & Queen'... but of course it would have had a name... not the Ballads & Blues?
I've been 'away' from this subject for a long time (I'll see if I can find my Bruce Dunnet and/or Carthy interviews on this era and post some extracts later)...
Be good to see those interviews
and you may be right - can't recall a strong anti-Dylan stance though, but he never warmed to Paul Simon.
As promised...
...here's some relevant extracts from interviews with Bruce Dunnet and Martin Carthy, both from 1998, recalling the early folk club era in London:
Bruce Dunnet (1998):
“When I was running the Singers Club the guys who started the Spinners, they came and asked me how to organise a folksong club. Normally at that time I wore a collar and tie and a suit and, assuming that I was therefore in charge, all sorts of people asked me for assistance. I mean, there was a guy called Professor Harry Osfer who used to come to the Scots Hoose [Cambridge Circus] - had a brother in America who was a wheeler dealer in monies - and Harry said he had two friends called Cyril Davies and Alexis Korner who were doing a folksong thing - it was really R&B but it was called folksong in those days - at The Round House in Old Compton Street, Soho. They were going to start a club in Ealing and Harry asked me would I run the door for them, because they needed somebody honest. So I ran the door for six weeks, and on the first night a group of young people came and played in the interval - asked me for permission, cos I was the one guy there with a collar and tie - and that was The Rolling Stones! I remember telling them they weren’t my kind of music! I did it for six weeks, and don’t know who took over from me, but Alexis for some reason told his son afterwards not to deal with me. I didn’t get any money for it - I did it in the spirit of music. I didn’t take money from The Singers Club either, maybe an occasional drink - but it was the movement. I wasn’t doing it for money.
[At that time I made a living as a] book-keeper, office administrator, commercial consultant, managing director in the Swinging Sixties down the Kings Road of a firm called Quorum - which was Ossie Clark and Alice Pollock, who were way-out, avant-garde designers… I was a lousy fucking book-keeper! But I was a good clerk, I had a very good memory. But I had all sorts of relationships with different employers who thought that I was an interesting character, to put it that way.
When [Alexis & Cyril] were in Old Compton St it was called a folksong club, though it wasn’t, and they were doing duets and solo acts but they had folk singers like Redd Sullivan and Martin Winsor come. Bob Dylan came to the Roundhouse in Old Compton St. and I think it was Martin Winsor told him to fuck off because he was on the needle at the time. And then, shortly after, he came to the Singers Club at The Pindar Of Wakefield, and Peggy Seeger told me we had to let him in. And I said, ‘I don’t want to let that shit in’, because I knew he’d been at Old Compton Street and barred. But no, she insisted and I had to let him in.”
Bruce also told me a self-deprecating anecdote about Paul Simon. Bruce had apparently turned down the chance to book Paul in the mid 60s, telling him that he’d ‘never draw the money’ (ie. get many punters). Years later, in 1974, Bruce was organizing a major fundraising concert for something or other. Paul was offered £20,000 to appear. He had agreed to come until he heard Bruce was organising it, saying to the intermediary: ‘Oh - tell him I’d never draw the money.’ You can just imagine the tone of voice, can't you? Like Van, then, not a man to forget a slight from the ‘60s…
Martin Carthy (1998):
“Bruce [Dunnet] was of a different generation who thought drugs were the road to hell. Of course Bob smoked dope - so did Bert [Jansch], so did Robin [Williamson], so did I, so did everybody. There were people who attacked Bob all the time - people like Martin Winsor. As far as they were concerned if a jazz musician smoked dope it was a really groovy thing, but these scruffs come down spoiling his dreams, his heroes. It’s like they committed sacrilege. All these guys like Coleman Hawkins, Charlie Parker - it’s romantic. But all these scruffs come along from Minnesota and Edinburgh and it’s not really cool. So they wanted to kick Bob Dylan out of the club and tried to make his life a misery - and he told them to piss off… Redd Sullivan was a sweet old stick and Martin Winsor turned him into the most horrendous racist. A horrible man.”
Thanks
and "aha !".
Penny drops. Dazzling Stranger. Ok.
On that Paul Simon story - he'd usually add "and I was fucking right, he wouldn't, not then, nobody fucking knew him".
Which is fair enough really.
its a cliche
but that doesn't make it untrue
Except that
Peggy Seeger working on Ewan McColl to get Dylan in at the Singers Club (the bastion of the traditional folk revival) does, sort of, make it untrue.
Here goes
Simon and Garfunkels catalogue of songs was better than that of the Beatles in my opinion. Subsequently Paul Simon has produced pop music that has astonished me.Does it matter that he might be a miserable fuck? No. Does it matter that he has appropriated the music of others? No. On the contrary he has championed the music of other 'Worlds' and given it credence in the Western marketplace be it the township jive of South Africa in Graceland, the Andean mountain music of El Condor Pasa or the salsa of Late in the Evening.
And then he is his own man - anyone who can write a song as good as American Tune is worthy of our highest praise. One of the greats and his latest album is the equal of most others released this year.
Thoughts from a non fan
I am watching the documentary as a fan of music but not as a fan of their music.
Sure, I like the odd song but more than two or three in a row and I'm out.
The point of my post though is the realisation that these two were the biggest thing in the music world for a couple of years in America and this is purely based on their music and harmonising. The songs and the vocals.
There was no makeover, no dance routines, no matching suits, just pure music. When was the last time an act truly straddled the world based on their pretty (largely) acoustic, orchestral music?
It's an amazing story and one that will never happen again in this age of image.
But I've just heard two songs in a row and I've got to turn it off.
The monkeys stand for honesty
I enjoyed the documentary probably because S & G stuff was part of my teenage years. Bookends though is IMHO their best album.
My point/question though relates to songwriting........a couple of times PS mentioned that others came up with parts of songs. I think he said it was Fred Carter who came up with the intro to the Boxer whilst 'Artie' came up with quite a prominent bit in another song. Why on Earth are they not therefore credited?!?
I know, miserable git that he is, PS is not alone in this respect. I seem to recall similar non-credits are around : the mandolin part on Maggie May, some of the words on the Quiet One's 'Taxman' were I believe written by Lennon and Bill Wyman has suggested he came up with the intro to 'Satisfaction'
Does anyone know of any others or have any thoughts?
I can't add anything...
.. but the same thing occurred to me when Art Garfunkel said about, or someone else said about him (I forget now), coming up with the middle eight of BOTW. I went and checked the song credits and, sure enough, all just "P. Simon". Strange old world.
Paul Simon, wrote all the lyrics...
....to all their songs(at least he says so).
What pissed Simon off at the time was that Garfunkel got as much recognition, and probably sometimes more, than he did.
Not in my book though. I've got all their records(as a duo) and most of Simon's solo albums. I don't have a single one of Garfunkel's, though I have heard a few....once was enough for me.
There are 3 threads in the recently updated part to do with Paul Simon. You need to include "Getting Ready For Christmas Day" though. It counts as it's the 1st track on Simon's latest album.
Yeah in the Soutb Bank Show
around the time of Graceland Paul says he used to stand in the wings watching as Art took the ovations at the end of BOTW and think "Author, Author'. Or it could have been "Arthur, Arthur" I'm not sure.
I believe that Art's "writing" of the middle of BOTW only went as far as saying to Paul that the song needed another verse to lift the whole thing and Paul went away and wrote it. Surely the line "Sail on silver girl" is from P to A, unless i've read it wrong all these years and it is about heroin after all.
P to P
Sail On Silver Girl was from Paul to first wife Peggy, who had gone prematurely grey.
I did not know that
*writes down in book of rock facts for dinner parties*
The major reason for the Mahavishnu Orchestra Mk 1's...
...split was the lack of writing credits everyone bar John McLaughlin was getting. Given the nature of the music, everyone's contribution was arguably critical to the end result - one can't imagine JM had every motif, every fiddle line, every keyboard riff, mapped out in his head beforehand... But there was a convention in the impro-centric jazz world that the 'main guy' got the writing credit - key example being Miles Davis. as far as JM was concerned, he didn't have an issue with Miles getting 100% writing credits on the albums with which he (JM) was involved - even though, clearly, huge swathes of music originated with the other players (eg 'Right Off' on the 'Jack Johnson' LP is undoubtedly a JM groove/riff over which Miles eventually - about 8 minutes in! - blows some trumpet!). The rationale being that Miles brought the players together, organised the session, so Miles gets the credit...
Contrast that with the pop world where Mike Love and the Procul Harum guy tell people decades later that they composed five or six notes in this or that song, so where's the money etc etc.
Ultimately, I'm with the pop guys on this, though I respect the jazz convention. trouble is with conventions, they only work if everyone affected is 100% behind them. After 2 1/2 years of surprise pop success, the jazz guys in the MO - understandably - felt the convention was at breaking point.
The problem with group members claiming
..royalties for composition (when it's usually arrangement anyway) after the fact, is precisely that..it's after the fact.
If a group member or partner feels he deserves credit he'd better sort it out before it goes off to the publisher. Judges and juries typically (and in my opinion rightly) cast a jaundiced eye over this sort of thing.
Hindsight is always 20/20
Shane.
Easy enough to say, until success suddenly strikes and the 'little tune' that you knocked out is on heavy rotation and everyone wants a piece of you. These things don't matter when you are young and in the heat of the moment, only when you are older and a bit 'Boracic',
Also, as I am sure you are aware (as a practising muso), cognitive dissonance does not play well in bands, unless you are a) The front person/leader, b) Sleeping with the Manager, c) Own the PA/Transport, d) are a really heavy bastard - or even all of the above. Most of the time, musicians take the line of least resistance - how many times have you seen (or experienced) third-party sackings, or a band being dissolved to get rid of a recalcitrant/unwanted member, only to reform later?