Entertainment For Lively Minds
Astral Weeks
Posted by geebee on 18 August 2011 - 4:11pm.
I picked up this month’s mag on the strength of articles on Paul Simon and Van Morrison’s Astral Weeks. Enjoyed one, was disappointed by the other.
Below are some comments. And I warn you, be prepared to put your feet up and settle back with something bracing, because you’re in for a long ride!
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...continued
While there are many excellent insights in Paul Du Noyer’s account of the traumatic gestation and birth of Astral Weeks, there are some areas with which a true Van fan would take issue. So, here we go…
PDN, on how the music wrought by the then 22-year-old’s band of heavyweight jazz alumni was created, writes: “…by all accounts there was zero communication in the studio. They played what they thought was wanted, added some fills, went home and forgot all about it.”
While the time spent actually recording the album might have been short, to assert, as PDN does, that Astral Weeks was “knocked off in hours” is to deny the years of craft and preparation that Morrison had put into the songs before even arriving in the studio. Madam George (formerly Madame Joy) and Beside You had been written years earlier and honed in the clubs around Boston, while Ballerina had originally been worked on by Them.
In interviews with Scott Foundas, who writes for LA Weekly, the LA Times, Variety and other titles, Morrison explained: “Well, I had already written “Ballerina,” in 1966, if this tells you anything, and the poetry written on the backside of the “Astral Weeks” album [cover] was an excerpt from something else I had written prior to that! Matter of fact, thinking back, I had previously recorded “Madame George” and “Beside You” well before the '68 Warner release, for Bang Records. But the arrangements were nothing like what I had in mind for those songs. I had also previously played versions of a few of the songs Live at the Catacombs [club] in Boston well before going in and making what became the “Astral Weeks” recordings that ended up as the record. We made that record straight through finally like I wanted them, without stopping. We did it my way in the studio that day. So, yes it took a very long time and a lot of thinking and arranging and hard work to structure these songs like I wanted them, like I envisioned them in my head. These songs were written over a period of time -– some early 1966 -- and evolved musically. They are timeless works that were from another sort of place -- not what is at all obvious. They are poetry and mythical musings channeled from my imagination. The songs are poetic stories, so the meaning is the same as always -- timeless and unchanging. They are little poetic stories I made up and set to music. The album is about song craft for me -- making things up and making them fit to a tune I have arranged. The songs were somewhat channeled works -- that is why I called it “Astral Weeks.”
PDN comments that Astral Weeks was not a “… seamless product of some séance-like communion of harmonious souls.” It is true that Morrison had never met, let alone worked with, the musicians before, and it is generally agreed that he was tense, driven and largely uncommunicative - verbally, at least - in the studio, performing vocals and guitar in a separate booth while the musicians jammed and improvised along. However, there can be no denying that there was communication, something in Morrison’s songs that inspired extraordinary work from everyone present. Musical magic, lightning caught in a bottle, for all time.
This is borne out by people who were there at the time. According to Greil Marcus, the recording engineer for the album, Brooks Arthur, reminisced in 2009 about the Astral Weeks sessions like this: "A cloud came along, and it was called the Van Morrison sessions. We all hopped upon that cloud, and the cloud took us away for awhile, and we made this album, and we landed when it was done."
Here is Van Morrison’s version of events, again quoting from Scott Foundas. “Most of these songs were first or second takes. There was kind of a run through to actually get the routine right and get the progression right, and then we just recorded it. It was recorded like a jazz session, which is the way I like to do it. There was a lot of work put into the songs previously, when I rehearsed them, and I did some of them live with a trio–myself and two other guys. So, the basic arrangements I had worked out then and the rest was added to that. But the whole thing was not just that; it was more the spontaneity of what was going on, and the reading of the material by the other people. So it was like an alchemical kind of situation, where the people involved could read the situation and knew what to do spontaneously, and come up with stuff spontaneously, and not belabour it, not sort of overproduce or overthink it. The people involved were like that. Everybody on the session was like that, which was uncanny. That's the way it worked out. “
If that doesn’t suggest that PDN’s reading is a little off, try this extract from a superb 2008 piece in The Observer by Sean O’ Hagan:
“Strumming gently on an acoustic guitar, he begins to sing the first of several strange, stark songs he has been recently performing in small venues on the east coast to general disinterest. Around him, listening intently, are gathered three jazz musicians of the highest calibre: bassist Richard Davis, who had played with the likes of Miles Davis and Sarah Vaughan, guitarist Jay Berliner, best known for his work with Charles Mingus, and drummer Connie Kay, a member of the esteemed Modern Jazz Quartet. They had been assembled, alongside arranger Larry Fallon, by producer Lewis Merenstein, who on first hearing the songs had immediately sensed that they would not work in a rock setting.
“If the young Van Morrison felt awed in such exalted company, he did not show it. In fact, he betrayed little emotion at all, and throughout the session, spoke only to the technicians. 'There wasn't much communication,' recalls Richard Davis, who now teaches music at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. 'As far as I can recall, I don't think I exchanged one word with the guy. We just listened to his songs one time, and then we started playing.'
“Brooks Arthur was the sound engineer on that same session, though, inexplicably, his name would be left off the subsequent album credits. When he talks about it today, 40 years later, regret soon turns to excitement in his voice. 'From the moment Van hit the first note I knew we were involved in something special,' he recalls. 'You have to understand, everything was live. There were no music charts. He ran it down once for the players and went into the vocal booth. Then we got the sound levels right and I hit the red light and he started singing.'
“That first working day comprised two three-and-a-half-hour studio sessions, during which three extended songs were recorded. ‘There wasn't too much stopping and starting,' says Arthur. 'Van took off and the musicians went with him. They were serious players, they didn't have to think about it, they just did it instinctively, and it caught fire. We were working at the speed of sound. I tell you, we were breathing rarefied air in there.'”
That’s it! If you have stuck with me this far, many thanks for reading, and I hope you found the journey worthwhile. Astral Weeks, and the musicians who made it, deserve more than “accidental classic” status.
Hell no
Oh Christ, not Paul Simon. And Astral Weeks - the ultimate record that only journalists of a certain age like - you say? It gets worse, it really does.
Next month - the making of Carole King's Tapestry, and a 22 page interview with Graham Nash.
We used to call these people Boring Old Farts for a reason, you know.
If you don't like the content of the magazine,
you don't have to buy it. I believe other music magazines are available :-)
Personally, I'd love a 22-page Graham Nash interview, and I cant think of anyone other than The Word which would be willing to print it.
I'm hoping
for a major feature on Gene Clark to coincide with the forthcoming CD reissue of Two Sides to Every Story. Hopefully it'll be so comprehensive there won't be any room in that month's mag for any of that crappy throwaway punk rock rubbish.
Ditto
to both Clark and Nash. This from someone who was only three when the Sixties ended.
oh dear Lord
Well, I suppose if a 22 page Graham Nash interview does appear, I'll only have myself to blame.
"Well, the interesting thing about writing Our House was, back when Joni - who I'm still very fond of by the way - and I were living together in her little house in Laurel Canyon, she actually did buy a vase, and we had just bought some flowers, from Mama Cass's florist. I think it was David Crosby who first introduced Cass to that particular florists...anyway, yes, they were great days, all right".
There you go. Enjoy!
Barney Hoskyns has documented the Laurel Canyon years
but I'd be really interested in his earlier years with The Hollies.
Thanks for that, BigE...
Ever thought you might have been wrong then, and just as wrong now?
errrmmmmm.....
No. Yes. And then No again.
I know enough about Paul Simon to know that he likes to use the word "astute" a lot, and that America is a really good song. I know enough about Van Morrisson to know that It's Too Late To Stop Now is a really great LP.
And I also know that Astral Weeks IS the ultimate music journalist LP, and that Paul Simon IS utterly tedious, and that they were - at the time of coining the phrase - Boring Old Farts, and still are. Does that answer your question? I do hope so.
Yes
and no.
To be honest
I thought the Astral Weeks article was genuinely shoddy. I have no brief one way or the other for the album. I've never heard it, and I don't really expect to ever do so, but this was the first time in ages I turned the page expecting an article to continue, and realised it had finished. No better than the desultory couple of pages of sleevenotes you might get in a reissue CD - just a piece of very thin content that should have been spiked.
But credit where credit's due, I thought the EMI piece in the same issue was excellent. Long enough to get to grips with its subject properly, properly researched and backed up by interviews with the key players that went beyond platitudes - more of this please! I'd happy settle for two or three pieces of this length and quality a month instead of half a dozen halfbaked fillers like the AW article.
If you want to blame anyone, blame me
The Astral Weeks piece was part of a short series called "Accidental Classics" which was my idea and I'm very pleased with it. It's dedicated to making the point that great records are often made by accident as well as design. The first one was Johnny Cash's American Recordings. The next one is Crowded House's "Woodface".
Paul wrote a thousand words on Astral Weeks, which is all that was needed to make that point in that case. If it was "thin" then surely making it longer would only have made it "thinner". If it was "desultory" that would mean it was lacking a plan which it wasn't. If it was full of "platitudes" then surely they would have been the same tired old nostrums that have been trotted out thousands of times before, overwhelmingly by critics who weren't even born when it came out. It wasn't. It was written as a counter to all the usual received wisdom.
The key point it made, and made very well, is that "classics" are made in our heads as a consequence of repeated exposure over a long period of time. If you don't agree with it, that's your choice but please don't call it "genuinely shoddy". I know "genuinely shoddy" when I read it and it never comes from Paul Du Noyer.
And yes, Eamonn's EMI piece was very good as well.
I wouldn't say it was shoddy
But if it was supposed to be about accidental classics it was misfounded. Clearly it wasn't an accident. Van prepared the ground to record with great jazz musicians, then did, the intention being to make a loose, stream of concious semi improvised album. which he did. End.
Here, Here.
A Point I made in a previous blog, but expressed better by Mr H, though of course it ought to be as he does this stuff for a living: that 'Classic' albums are indeed a manufacture of our own memories, dreams and reflections. The evidence? Er, like what I wrote a few months back: that there are numerous 'classic' albums that certainly weren't seen as such at the time they were originally released.
And i enjoyed the article on EMI very much. I suspect time will be kind to the villain of the piece, you know. I once flirted around the Industry and it amazed me then, as it does now, that records actually come to be made at all. It was, and I suspect still is, the most chaotic environment I have ever worked in. And do you know who I blame? The Artists.
Minor clarification
my praise of the EMI article was not intended to be in opposition to my dislike of the Astral Weeks piece, or a "it should have been like this". Two different articles with different specs and aims - one clicked with me and one didn't.
That said, my initial reaction to your reply was something along the lines of "well, that may have been the intended thrust of the article, but I didn't pick up on it at all", but I've just scanned it again and I can see what you're saying. Either because I've been guided by your comment, or more likely because my first reading was at ten past six in the morning over my cornflakes.
Not for nothing
American Recordings, Astral Weeks and Woodface are three of my favourite records ever.
So from this antipodean-haven't-read-the-article-yet vantage point, more power to you. Looking forward to it.
Accidental Classics
Great idea. Fascinating premise. But the Astral Weeks article was so full of holes that it shouldn't have passed the sub's desk.
I agree that PDN's point about "classics" being made over a period of time, due to the cumulative effect it has on successive generations of listeners, is bang(pun intended)on the money. But I don't understand your "critics who weren't even born when it came out" comment. Can a critic (an honest one, whose criticism is based on a personal response to something, rather than a rehash of what has gone before) only write with authority or insight about something which was created in her or his lifetime? Or are you suggesting that critics are "overwhelmingly" content to trot out what they've read elsewhere?
If one of the main purposes of the Accidental Classics series is to "counter all the usual received wisdom", then surely its articles have to draw back the veil of legend, or puncture some kind of myth, and replace them with facts. Unfortunately, this particular article got some of the most important facts wrong.
Deliberate classics?
Are there such things other than accidental classics? Lennon said that that in the mid period the band felt they were making great albums. Okay. But some of the players who played on Astral Weeks are also saying the same thing. I don't think you can rely on anything VM says because it varies depending on mood. Dickens' novels are regarded as classics but he would never have thought of them as such.
I guess my point is an obvious one (I obviously agree with DH's 'key point'). I am just not sure that many albums would elude the description and when bands get all self-conscious about the work then normally it has a deleterius effect. I would be interested in seeing the list of albums to be described in this way and which ones are therefore regarded as intentional classics. Would like to know if Eric Clapton's first solo album or 461 Ocean Boulevard are described as such.
Deliberate Classics...
I agree with your main point. I don't know of a single album designed, or intended from the outset, to be a "classic". An artist's view of whether or not what he or she has created is irrelevant. That's up to posterity, and what the world makes of it. That's why the "instant classic" title bestowed by some critics on some artistic venture or other is worthless at the time it is written.
The word "accidental" wasn't my bone of contention with this article, as you will know from my post and subesquent comments.
I don't think I implied VM set out to create a classic, or felt that he had done so at the time. As I've said elsehere, AW was the outcome of a group of brilliant musicians being brought together in the same place, at the right time, being inspired by their source material and each other, and taking flight, with a producer who was as much a catalyst as a technician.
As to whether or not what VM says can be relied upon (and I've followed his work closely enough over the years to know how contradictory he can be!), that's irrelevant here. It's other participants' memories and impressions of the AW sessions that undermine PDN's portrayal of their attitudes and what happened once they picked up their instruments.
Adrian Gurvitz ...
... comes to mind.
I'm with you geebee.
If that was accidental, so was Christopher Nupen's film of du Pré owning the Elgar Cello Concerto.
thanks geebee
I enjoyed reading your post. Some interview quotes I was unaware of. Most illuminating.
Good post`
I like PdN very much, but the assumption that session players are not musical, listening or bothered is rubbish. Session players are terrific musicians of course, but there are loads of terrific musicians. Session players are ones who can also produce a terrific performance with the red light on, one full of passion and melody and creativity, within time constraints. As stated above, and your ears can tell you anyway, these players were on top form and on fire. Suggesting they came in, knocked one off, took the cheque and went home is insulting what they achieved.
Astral Weeks
is without doubt a really impressive piece of work by an artist who has many to his name. I really like it and I am not a journalist but probably am of a certain age. I wasnt aware of the mechanics of making the album but have always been aware of its beauty. Yes it may not have taken long to record but anyone with a modicum of sense would know that those songs couldnt have been made off the cuff as seems to be implied.
By the way the Paul Simon interview was great but far too short. His latest album is amongst his best which kind of defeats the argument that these artists are no longer able to produce material of such high standards.
I used to own Astral Weeks
as Guy Hands once owned EMI. That's where the real story is this month. Thanks Mr Forde.
definitely boring
I stopped reading that other 4-letter music mag because of the (to me) tedious Americana/ 'canonical' approach to 'good' music. I'm totally with the contributors above who call "Astral weeks" boring, and that that type of music (along with all that other singer-songwriter strumming) earnest, complacent and dull. VM's 'jazz' chops are much exaggerated IMHO, and really, the only things I've liked by him are "Jackie Wilson said", "Brown Eyed Girl", and his various live covers (and I've seen hiom a few times, listened to albums, etc.). He's as over-rated as Eric Clapton to me. I've 'tried' to listen to many canonical albums, and at times when i was less critical and more open to noew things, but simply didn't get it.
In the recent talk about the return of the OGWT (and the article in the magazine) I was reminded of the endless 'specials' it had on Jesse Colin Young, James taylor, Jackson Browne, Seals and Croft, Pablo Cruse, ant the Atlanta Rhythm Section. There was a definite agenda in pushing that kind of stuff; I can only think it was my mother making sure I went to bed early (seeing OGWT was on late mid-week it was often a school day tomorrow). The drippy list above was around simultaneously with the crappy 1976 TOTPs people have noted. It's another reason for punk.
You're not
Doug B, back from punk Valhalla are you?
I don't know who he is
but he's my new best mate.
Spot on about that revisionist magazines too.
Isn't the use of the term "boring" often the
last resort of the adjectivally challenged? It seems to me that I heard it most often when I was a secondary school teacher dealing with recalcitrant little monkeys who just wanted to be allowed to nod off quietly at the back of the room because they'd been up too late doing pointless things while their parents couldn't muster sufficient backbone to get them into bed.
*snorts derisively and shakes out the pages of his Telegraph*
I think Van Morrisons
body of work places him somewhat higher up the food chain than those you list with possible exception of Jackson Browne.I am happy to see articles on singer songwriters or articles on new bands of almost any genre. The thing that Word has successfully avoided imho is being stereotyped. Uncut has long been known as the champion of Americana and when I want info on this I will go there rather than Word. Likewise the review sections in both Uncut and Mojo are more valuable to me than the reviews on here - not because they are better but because there are more of them.To exclude articles about 'singer songwriter strumming' artists would clearly be nonsensical. Just because OGWT had specials about Jesse Colin Young and Seals and Croft then it doesn't mean such artists would appear on any new incarnation of the programme now. I didn't see your point and am not sure Van Morrison is accurately described as a singer songwriter.
I often find it really odd
I often find it really odd when there seems to be a causal link between liking an article and liking a piece of music or artist. Do some people really only enjoy reading about bands they like? I find that baffling.
I don't like Astral Weeks at all (although do like some Van. Moondance and St Dominics for two). I have owned it about three or four times and always give it away a few months later. I convinced one day I will "get it." But I don't see why that would affect my liking of the piece or admiring the writing. I'm enjoying these short pieces on 'accidental classics'.
Oh, and while I'm here Eamonn Forde's piece on EMI was bloody marvellous.
Latest issue
I think the latest issue is the best for ages, BTW.
Astral Weeks is a wonderful, unique album
I don't really care how it was made.
I do know that it will never be repeated but, because it exists, I can enjoy listening to it any time I like.
Big ears
I like some Van too but I still can't get into Astral Weeks. I've tried several times since the late 80's. I think I'm expecting my ears to grow big enough to appreciate it.
Much as how I never 'got' Duke Ellington until recently. It was always too serious or something. But one day I just started to love his stuff (I'm sure he would be chuffed).
One day Astral Weeks will do that too.
Think of it as a jazz album
with scat vocals. Enjoy the bass which is outstanding and the lilting rhythms. After a while some of the words will float into your consciousness and some of them are quite remarkable.
That's how I started to like it
Laura Barton
The rather wonderful Laura Barton on AW:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/aug/03/van-morrison-astral-weeks-re...
Apparently, in keeping with his Caledonian obsession,
Van wanted to call the album Astral Breeks but was sadly overruled...
Lewis Merenstein
This is a great overview of the whole process from the producer of Astral Weeks. Some very insightful observations about the circumstances which come together at the right time in the right place to make a great album. Actually I think it kind of vindicates both points of view on this thread - that it was planned, to a certain extent, but equally it was a spontaneous performance which, for a variety of circumstantial reasons, was perfect. I love his George Martin quote about timing, seems bang on about this one.
http://darkforcesswing.blogspot.com/2009/03/in-full-lewis-merenstein-pro...
Thanks, Ian
Thanks for the link. I hadn't read the article before, and it was fascinating to read the producer's insights. I totally agree with him about the bass-playing on Astral Weeks; it's right up there in the mix with VM's voice, and is an integral part of what makes the record so special (though I know it's not special to everyone).
Everyone in that studio was inspired while the tapes were rolling on the songs that eventually formed the finished record. VM by whatever it was in his 22 year-old life that allowed the songs to be created in the first place, and the other musicians by what they heard, and the feeling the songs gave them. And the producer deserves the highest praise for choosing those musicians at that time.
So, synchronicity, yes. Inspiration on the day, yes. But to imply that this was a record churned out by a bunch of hired hands that just happened to turn out, over the years, to be a classic, as PDN did in his article, well, no. Had there been any acknowledgment of that inspiration, and less implied dismissivness (which I'm prepared to believe wasn't deliberate) in the article, then I would never have written my response to it in the first place.
Accidental albums - A Good Thing
My little eyes gleamed when I first saw this new element. I cannot wait for the next one, cos it's about Crowded House. I don't really care for Van Morrison, but nevertheless love good writing about such processes. From this subscriber, more please. Next please: Sign 'O' The Times, Bachelor No. 2, Skylarking, or whatever you blimmin' like.
"Good writing"
Depends on what you mean by "good". If you reckon a "good" piece is one which is well-expressed, spelled correctly and has all the full-stops, commas and quotation marks in the right places, then Du Noyer's piece was excellent. But if "good", when applied to an article that is supposed to be an account of actual events, also implies that it has something to say that would stand up to scrutiny in a persuasive way, then Du Noyer's work falls short of the mark, on this occasion, at least. Perhaps it was the brief he was given?
But it does
stand up to scrutiny. I think there is a misunderstanding of what the piece actually says, which is perfectly coherent, and what some people think it should say, which is fine, but just a matter of personal preference.The additional links on this thread are very interesting, but they don't undermine the piece in any way. Actually they reinforce it.
I agree (in part) with BigE
Astral Weeks is one of the most insufferable, unlistenable, completely overrated records of all-time. All that fucking wailing and 'soulfulness' gets right on my wick.
Not a fan then hey?
Don't hold back; you have always been too restrained.
Afraid you're wrong there
Can't speak for your wick obviously.
Afraid you’re wrong, to be Afraid they’re wrong
Wow, that is really pompous.
It’s the height of ignorance for anyone to tell anyone else that their opinion on any piece of art is “wrong”. I don’t care who you are. It is ignorant. To be “afraid” they are wrong is really pompous.
The poster you respond to does not like Astral Weeks; neither do I, and neither do many others here. The comments he (or she) makes are totally valid. They are not “wrong” at all, by any objective or subjective measure. You may not agree, but that does not make them wrong…as you’ve been a critic for about 40 years, I shouldn’t even have to point this out to you.
People who do not buy music magazines are not interested in Astral Weeks. Ever since I started taking an interest in music, I have been reading that Astral Weeks is a “classic”. I would place money on you, Mr Hepworth, being one of the Astral Weeks lobby. Lester Bangs wrote a long piece about it, too, which was far more entertaining than any other word on the subject I’ve ever seen. And it’s fair enough. You like Astral Weeks. It’ll probably say that on your headstone – Here Lies David Hepworth, Astral Weeks Fan.
So, I bought Astral Weeks. I had to investigate. I bought it in the 6th form. It’s a 6th form kinda record. I pretended I liked it. So did many people I know. Because the implication was always, this is a classic, and if you don’t like it, then there is something wrong with your appreciation of music. Ooh, Astral Weeks! We can kid ourselves into liking anything, if the peer pressure is sufficient. And then, one day, we realize, no – I don’t like this. I really do not like this. Why am I listening to this record?
Because I was told it was a classic. It may be – but it’s your classic. Not everybody’s.
It’s a turnip – forced down our throats, told it will do us good. Some people really love turnips, and some people really love Astral Weeks. Fine. Are they wrong? Course not! I used to hate turnips, but I never told turnip eaters they were wrong. I don’t mind turnip now, if it’s blended in with a bit of mash. Lovely!
This is wrong: Burt Bacharach used to be “Fast” Eddie Clarke’s guitar tech. PJ Harvey writes songs for the Teletubbies. Art Garfunkel sang backing vocals for Napalm Death.
But the poster above is not wrong, is not a philistine, and it shows immense arrogance and pomposity on your part to respond so.
I’m an obnoxious and opinionated get, but I would never seriously tell someone their view of a work was “wrong”. I’m not going to misquote Voltaire here…
You are a publisher of magazines, Mr Hepworth - and Word is an excellent magazine (while I'm here, more Rob Fitzpatrick, Jude Rogers and Dorian Lynskey please…and no more Charles Shaar Murray, he’s so cringeworthy). But I don’t remember God giving you a pair of golden ears. You don’t have better taste than anybody else. Beg to differ by all means, but less of the “wrong”. It is unbecoming.
Weirdly
I don't see any difference between "Afraid you're wrong there", especially in answer to a post that categorically slates an album, and your own "Paul Simon IS tedious". All three are examples of opinion dressed up as fact.
Seven statements, one author
Five are total bollocks. One skewers the writer on his own hypocrisy (if you look at his comments here and elsewhere). In my opinion, of course. Oh, and one is completely accurate. Can you spot which is which, reader?
(Astral Weeks is) “…the ultimate record that only journalists of a certain age like…”
“I also know that Astral Weeks IS the ultimate music journalist LP…”
“People who do not buy music magazines are not interested in Astral Weeks.”
“It’s a 6th form kinda record.”
“It’s a turnip – forced down our throats, told it will do us good.”
“It’s the height of ignorance for anyone to tell anyone else that their opinion on any piece of art is “wrong”. I don’t care who you are. It is ignorant. To be “afraid” they are wrong is really pompous.”
“I’m an obnoxious and opinionated get…”
Everyone can agree or disagree on matters of opinion. Most of us recognise that just about everything here is a matter of opinion. And some present their ideas as though they are fact.
As has often been said on this forum, The Word site is like a favourite pub, where you go to share opinions – pro and con – on a wide range of subjects with a wide range of people. Unfortunately, like a pub, you get the occasional ranting boor imposing his views on others (and no, I’m not being self-referential here!). Unlike a pub, the boorish comment hangs in the air for eternity, like a never-ending fart in a lift.
Have an up
I mentioned my dislike of AW on another post a few days ago and was advised perhaps a little ganja might help me see the point. Ganja makes almost anything seem good, so I remain unconvinced.
Perhaps he means
Astral Wicks?
A close friend died suddenly this week and the first album I went to for solace was....you've guessed it.
Interested that DH has
Interested that DH has actually come out and said that pocket is wrong about his view of AW. This kind of gainsaying usually leads to a theoretical debate about subjectivity and objectivity. I am wondering what led David to weigh in (and I think it's a relevant phrase); was it done as a playfully ironic response to Pocket's intense descriptions or as a disapproval of his judgment? I think that it is because of Pocket's declaration that the album 'is' unlistenable when clearly the evidence would suggest otherwise. Personally, I am waiting for the moment when I can listen to all of A Love Supreme. I will need to try it from time to time.
I think he was defending Paul Du Noyer rather than AW
My reading was that he was taking responsibility for commissioning a short piece with such a slant, records that are 'classics' by 'accident'. in that context, he was sayinf paul did a good job.
However, I agree with most people's views on this thread that it is difficult to imagine anyone successfully setting out to record a deliberate classic. Artists do the best they can and sometimes they are 'classics'
A Love Supreme
Now that *is* unlistenable.
Oh well
Well, I love A Love Supreme and don't like Astral Weeks.
I think, though, Mr Hepworth we can agree that the Silver Seas are desperately boring and not a patch on the new Little Dragon or SBTRKT LPs, can't we? Oh.
Here's someone who set out to write a 'classic'...
...except that it was just a load of dross with terrible shoe-horned rhymes...
Van Morrison
Sorry, he is up there with Morrissey, critically adored, but I just dont 'get' either of them.
"Accidental classic"
When David Hepworth says the well-made point is "that 'classics' are made in our heads as a consequence of repeated exposure over a long period of time," it seems to me that two things are going on.
One is that we are overlooking the reason for the repeated exposure and the other is the emphasis on the creative part of consuming - that we make things in our heads.
If we define a "classic" as something that has endured, that still gets listened to and talked about and loved and enjoyed (and hated and misunderstood and derided as boring) after a significant passage of time, then we shouldn't overlook the content of the album.
Call me some oldfashioned authorial fallacist if you must, but I reckon Ivan George had something to do with the fucking gorgeousness of Astral Weeks.
The accidents of its creation were no accidents if you consider the personnel chosen and the method of construction.
Anyone who has sat through the Bang masters where Van exhorts the studio hacks there to loosen up and adopt that signature Morrison cha-chug knows that the vibe of Astrakl Weeks was someting he had been heading to for some time.
He wanted the looseness and the almost detached sound.
Exactly right.
.
Excellent work
you oldfashioned authorial fallacist
Subjective opinions
are fine and dandy but I kind of think I see where DH is coming from. I will give you an example - personally I think Thriller by Michael Jackson is awful but I am somewhat in the minority holding that view. As much as I dislike it I can appreciate that it was made with care and is well crafted.I can also appreciate that it contains classic pop songs.'Insufferable, unlistenable, completely overrated' are extreme and emotive words to use in comment on a serious piece of work like Astral Weeks that has classic status. If they were used to describe a first foray into a studio by someone who had never recorded anything before then I can understand their use. To apply them in this context is inappropriate and inexact. This doesnt detract from the opinion that pocker calculator doesnt like the album.Unfortunately to make our point we often overstate our thoughts.
I'd agree with that
and would be immensely gratified if these rules could also be applied to some music (and entire genres) made between 1990 and the present day.
It remInds me of What's Going On
One good song and then a load of faffing around in a similar, but ever weakening vein. 2/10. Not A Rock Critic.
Van
I skipped the article, I skip anything about Van Morrisson.
I think I've only heard Jackie Wilson Says (good song) Brown Eyed Girl (too many associations of being played in Yates Wine Lodge with Hi Ho Silver Lining and Summer Of 69 etc) and Have I Told You Lately. None of these really made me want to hear more, but the main reason I haven't wished to listen any futher is the Word Podcast: it's left me with the impression that he's a very unpleasent individual and so not worth bothering with. Unfair?
For some reason...
...when I see a picture of Van Morrison, or even hear the name, it brings to mind a really whiffy pack of awful cheap cheese and onion crisps. I think it's something to do with his face and countenance.
Don't get me wrong. I like cheese and onion crisps but for some reason it doesn't translate into a desire to discover music.
I can't get past it with VM and so Astral Weeks sits, barely played, on my CD shelves.
Try 'Wavelength'.
Seriously, if you're hesitant about the VM canon, and you're more of a rhythm & blues man than a Celtic troubadour, that album's a great way in.
Typically, it was one of his albums that got short shrift from many of the self-appointed VM cognoscenti, a fact that speaks volumes about them.
The most recent remaster is extremely well done, and it's a fiver. I suspect it's on Spotify too.
Alright
I'll give it a bash...
Couldn't find the album
on Spotify but I gave the song 'Wavelength' a try - nice handclaps!
However, I less keen on the synths and the guitar solo. Also, for some reason I find it really upsetting when singers use the word 'mama' to refer to an object of their affection.
Liked the backing vocals towards the end though...
Not bad but I wasn't blown away. What other tracks on the album should I try?
Kingdom Hall,
Hungry For Your Love and Santa Fe/Beautiful Obsession are worth a go, I think.
Nah nah nah nah nah nah
Natalia. I loved that album the year I did the finals for my degree and even now it brings back that terrific summer. VV is right, the CD is a must have and in fact is one of my favourite Van albums.
Living in NI one hears...
...a lot of 'Van stories', and you can't help bumping into people who are/have been in his bands. I heard about a guy who installed central heating in one of his homes a couple of years ago - place was strewn with empty pizza boxes (which goes some way towards confirming your junk food suspicions Chimney!). The guy says to Van, 'Right, let me explain how the settings work and how you can program it...' 'No' says Van, 'just turn it on'.
Another time, a friend of mine finds himself stuck in a lift with Van somewhere in Europe. A few floors of silence. then Van says 'Do I know you?'
'Yes,' says my friend. 'Er, I'm your sound man. The past six months.'
'Mmmm' says Van.
A few more floors go by.
'Hamburg. What happened in Hamburg?'
'ah - that was a faulty monitor. It won't happen again.'
'Mmm'
More floors go by, Van exits. And so ends one of the great dialogues of our time by one of the great communicators. It ain't why, why, why - it just is...
I think it is generally agreed that he is a c#nt
the debate is whether you like his music
A suggestion
I don't care whether or not anyone else likes Van Morrison. Wouldn't dream of trying to convert anyone, either. I think anyone with anything sensible to offer (pro or con) about my original post has had their say by now.
So can I suggest that Messrs Chimney..., kidpresentable, TedLoaf, pocket.calculator and fellow travellers start a "Why I hate Van Morrison" thread? Or maybe start one of their own with a more in-depth premise, perhaps, "Why I don't like ??? because he/she/they remind me of my least favourite Pot Noodle." Or, "You should be listening to ??, because he/she/they aren't boring old farts."
I don't hate him
Just think that he might smell of cheese and onion.
Sorry, didn't mean to annoy you.
Good point and apologies about
the intrusion. I don't hate Van and I don't hate Astral Weeks.
Didn't mean to sound quite so tetchy...
... must be the music I listen to.
I don't hate him either
I don't really have strong feelings about him, just what I've gathered from Word itself, which is why I thought it worth mentioning. It does seem like the discussion was naturally heading towards more general thoughts on him and his semi-regular appearance in the magazine. Apologies if I was off-topic though, but it's not uncommon for threads on here to develop beyond the original intention.
I did think your original post was worthwhile by the way, particularly if the article unfairly represented the session players, which is what led me to look at the rest of the discussion.
Anyone who doesn't like Astral Weeks is in good company...
Macca, no less, in an article for a glossy about 15 years back said he didn't understand the fuss and why it was so acclaimed.
I'm with Macca. Sounds like tortuous noodling to me. Each to his own.
Against my better judgement....
It's not noodling. It can be described as many things but noodling just doesn't seem at all accurate. For me, like Bill Flanagan (former editor of Musician mag now with VH 1 I think) "VM has no betters and few peers." I have found that endless stories of his unfortunate personality has had a negative effect on my enjoyment of his music and I play it less than I used to. I have worn out copies of Moondance, Band and Street Choir (Domino is still a great song), St Dominics' Preview, Into the Music and Veedon Fleece. Its Too Late to Stop Now is a great live album and I really like One Night in SFC despite its oddness (Georgie Fame, Georgie Fame). I just put on the albums and listened until their melodies and arrangements found their way in. But now, I think nothing really good for over 20 years and some truly terrible music. It seems that his personality has been disintegrating for years and now is no longer capable of separating man and myth which is a terrible irony in his case. I am sorry I know as much about him as I do because its made listening to the mostly very good No Method album increasingly difficult. But I still love that opening verse:
"when I was a young boy back in Orangefield
I used to look out my classroom window and dream
And go back home and listen to Ray sing
'I Believe to My Soul' after school"
Loved everything about that. His voice mainly. Made me hunt down Ray Charles' song. I am sure that is the way it is supposed to work.
Odd? Georgie Fame?
Really? Aside from his own wonderful solo works reaching back as far as Van's, I thought he was the best band leader than Van Morrison ever had.
In what way odd?
Georgie Fame
Definitely one of VM's best sidemen and band leaders. I'm hoping that perhaps everygoodboy... is talking about the many, many "shout-outs" to various band members that crop up throughout the show, rather than the quality of GF's contribution. I found them odd, if not downright intrusive, too.
Might have been mentioned above.....
.....but talk of VM always refers, naturally enough, to albums made under his own name.
I'd just like to state that Them are 'the' UK R'n'B group of '64, '65 and '66 and are fantastically undervalued and largely unknown.
Yes - Van's intros are odd
In the live album Van would regularly shout out the soloist by saying their name twice: "Candy Dulpher Candy Dulpher". Loved that live album though, especially Fame's showcase :Jumpin' with Symphony Sid." Really liked live version of It Fills You Up. Agree about Them. - Had a friend ask once which early Rolling Stones album I was playing because she loved it. It was Them Again.