Entertainment For Lively Minds
A fine toothcomb
Earlier today I was reading a page proof of the magazine I work for and one of the articles contained the phrase "a fine toothcomb."
I turned to the sub editor, who's paid to be a grammar snob, and said, that's wrong. It's fine-tooth comb, or if you really want to be pedantic, fine-toothed comb.
She said, "Well I thought so too, so I checked the dictionary." And she showed me - 'fine toothcomb' is in the OED. This was too much bear, and as I didn't have time to write a letter of protest to the editor of the Telegraph, I Googleised the phrase. Turns out it's now such a common mistake that the dictionaries have given the hell up and included it.
As I was explaining this, a young reporter who must be, I don't know, probably twelve, leaned over and said "Dude. Word Nerd."
So here's my dilemma. I still care that it's 'a hair's breadth' not 'a hare's breath.' But should I just, as it were, give the hell up too?
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LOL
sorry, that's all
My dear Captain ...
I am presently drafting a missive to my MP in protest. It is a fine-tooth comb, as you say and If the entire globe stands on one side and want to fight me, they will not break me on this ...
I am with you on the hair's breadth
Toothcomb is a word I would use though.
the concept of a toothcomb
- presumably one for the hair on your teeth - is rather grim isn't it?
Never give up
I fight these fights each day. I've got your back, man
It's corned beef
But everyone thinks it's corn beef. I had some last week and at least maintained another tradition by not getting the key to wrap round the metal strip properly and cutting my finger when I tried to sort it out.
I've never heard anyone say corn beef
Anyone who doesn't know it's "corned" has never heard of the disgusting rationing era foodstuff surely?
(well, I'll eat it sometimes obviously)
Never Surrender!
Fight this to the last.
English language will always be changing and that's fine. The glottal-stoppers are making alterations as we speak.
But it still belongs to my generation aswell as everone else too and we're not dead yet. It's a fine-toothed comb until we're not around to say otherwise.
(lights pipe, side-parts hair, has coronary)
Starts
sentence with conjunction. Is shot at dawn.
*sigh*
Bang to rights. I'll come quietly.
Tell Penelope I love her. Goodbye cruel world.
And why would anyone
want to comb their teeth?
I've woken up on many mornings
when the toothbrush just didn't hack it and a toothcomb would've come in handy (see the "worst drink" thread).
Keep fighting the good fight
It is important.
We attempt to stay afloat in a sea of mediocrity, our hands gripping in desperation those few scraps of life-affirming flotsam that wobble past. At times, we are pulled under by the pneumatic charms of celebrity mermaids and the fatal undercurrents of mindless pap, yet we still manage to claw our way back to the surface for a brief glimpse of the clear, blue sky.
In these moments, filling our lungs with the air of enlightened discourse, we gaze frantically across the scum-tipped waves towards those few bobbing heads who we know, in our hearts, are just like us.
Yes, sometimes it is anal and reductive to cling to minor historico-linguistic details, but the act of clinging is what keeps those few, lonely heads afloat. The more of these small details we collect, the sooner we can build a raft, haul our fellow drowning mariners aboard, and set out for that mystic continent where we know we all belong.
We are "all bound for Word Word Land"
Sung to the The Ancients of MuMu tune by KLF works well.
We're...
justified and we're ancient.
ancient
anyway...
What the fuck
is going on?
Ancient yes
Also ranged left
Rocking rolling riding
I'd even be happy to have it sung to this:
[but can't find Rowan Pelling's paean to the voice of Judith Durham anywhere on t'web-iirc she was nominating JD for the fourth plinth ...]
On a similar theme
On the cover the version of The Word that is sent to subscribers it says Subscribers Edition.
I'm quite prepared - even willing - to be told that I'm wrong, but shouldn't that be Subscribers' Edition (or even, Subscriber's Edition, as it's my very own copy)...?
Subscribers Edition is fine
Subscribers here is an adjective, as in Mothers Day
I am not an adjective
I am a free man
No no no!
I cannot agree! It's clearly "the edition of the subscribers", and therefore Subscribers' Edition is the only correct usage. I can't see how "subscribers" could be anything other than a plural noun. The adjective from "subscriber", if there has to be one, would surely be something like "subscriberish". Possibly "subscriberesque".
Both abominations, natch, but nothing compared to a missing or misplaced apostrophe.
You're right - it's wrongity-wrong (ish)
The confusion arises because apostrophes are silent; we don't hear them, so possessive forms sound identical to the standard plural form. A neat test to check whether cases such as these are grammatically possessive or not is to see what happens if we use an irregular plural. So, what do we call a TV programme for children? Or clothing for women? Exactly. They're plural possessive, which is why it also should be members' lounge, players' entrance, shareholders' meeting... and subscribers' edition.
And, anyway, if it were adjectival, it'd most likely be singular. (That's why we don't say cigarettes packet or teethbrush.)
So, either subscribers' edition (possessive) or subscriber edition (adjectival) is what it has to be.
That's the theory, anyway. But this particular dead horse, flogged to within an inch of it's [sic] life, vaulted [sic] so many moons ago that any attempt to reign [sic] it in is fêted [sic] to turn into a wild goosechase [sic].*
It's stuff like this that's at the heart of the whole prescriptivist/descriptivist debate among lexicographers ("laying down the law" versus "telling it like it is"). Sometimes you just have to shrug and find other windmills to tilt at - much as the OED seems to have done in the case of the dental haircare.
(*Don't even get me started on dicky hyphenation.)
Thanks
Thanks for that crystal clear explanation, Archie.
When do we start the campaign for the good folks at The Word to change what appears on the cover to either Subscriber Edition or Subscribers' Edition, but definitely not Subscribers Edition...?
I hadn't even noticed, to be honest
I'm too busy still raging over "Almadóvar" six months ago.
I Beg To Differ: Devil's Advocate Joins Devil
You see a lot apostrophe misuse, and sometimes, when it's done by someone of whom you expected better, you question yourself and check again: "Could it be correct if you look at it another way?". Applying this test here, I've now become convinced that the form "Subscribers Edition" can be justified...
You run a major publication, with several editions for different circumstances:
The first one that comes out is called the Early Edition
In the evening you produce the Evening Edition
Because they keep a copy, you produce a British Museum Edition
For your own records you produce an Archive Edition
To cope with the demand, via the web, of people who want one-off copies, you produce a Web Requests Edition
For your trusty subscribers you produce a Subscribers Edition.
Now you could look at it another way and produce an Evening's Edition (the edition belonging to the evening), British Museum's Edition, an Archive's Edition and a Web Requesters' Edition. In that case, Subscribers Edition would be wrong, but in the context I described above, it's perfectly correct.
Good try, but, sorry, I'm not buying it
I suppose "Subscription Edition" might just about make the cut as adjectival, to go alongside "Early" or "British Museum", but not "Subscribers".
Otherwise you'd have to accept "children clothes" to go alongside "casual" and "formal", wouldn't you?
"Not buying it"!
Luckily, you're not the only customer, or sole arbiter
I know what
Together with the CD, they could add a little pot of Tippex.
I'm with you too
It's the 'Edition for Subscribers', not the 'Edition of Subscribers': the subscribers don't edit it, or do they and I haven't had my invitation yet?
I don't know...
...that there's a grammatical distinction between "for" and "of" in this case. The issue is a possessive one: the edition belongs to the subscribers, so the subscribers have to be treated as a possessive noun (and I think "of" in your example means "issuing from", rather than "belonging to". When we said "the edition of the subscribers" earlier, it was a possessive "of").
Subscriber Edition or Subscribers' Edition are surely the only way to do it. I just can't see how the word "subscribers" in the plural can be used adjectivally.
God, I love this blog.
The former
I'd argue, as it's for all subscribers, not just you
It's all going off
like a damp squid
Careful
It's a vicious cycle.
and for the cynics who got it wrong
oh ye of little face
how much bear?
Way too much.
the world's
going to Hull in a handcart.
Pah!
Your mother knits socks in hell!
(vomits)
Never give up, Captain!
Fight the good fight on behalf of those of us who suffer physical pain on witnessing a misplaced apostrophe....
Back at the toothcomb
It is 'fine toothcomb'. Tooth-comb is in the OED, where it's defined as "a small-tooth comb". Kingsley Amis in The King's English remembers it as "the sort that as well as fine teeth had an inches-long spike at one end".
This is acknowledged in the pronunciation: I've only heard fine TOOTH comb, never FINE tooth comb.
It's tricky.
The earliest quotation in the OED for 'fine-tooth comb' is from 1839, referring to an actual comb.
The earliest quotation for 'toothcomb' is from 1893, and, although the definition is 'a small-tooth comb', none of the quotations is for its literal sense.
And the Shorter Oxford has ‘[orig. an erron. use]’ in its entry on 'toothcomb’.
Never surrender
The barbarians are at the gates. Let's all get up on the ramparts and pour boiling oil on their heads.
Word Nerd
Come on, give the boy credit - that's really very good. That's a new merch t-shirt design if I'm not mistaken.
I'm proud to be a Word Nerd
In both senses of the errm... word.
Here's one that makes me roll my eyes: "Off me own back". It's bat, you fools.
That's a real seed change
Only this week I have seen the use of the word sea change. Most dictionaries say that is correct. Huh?
Full fathom five thy father lies:
Of his bones are coral made:
Those are pearls that were his eyes:
Nothing of him that doth fade
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange.
Eh?
Which one are you saying is right?
Sorry t'internet conked out
I would not have spoken either version. Did not really understand the meaning until I looked it up. I usually heard it as seed change.
Ah!
I get you now. Shakespeare and Beck have always led me right on that one. It's much beloved of parliamentary correspondents:
HACK: "That's right, Huw. This fantastically uninspiring development which is only of interest to me and Andrew Marr marks a real sea change in British politics."
HUW EDWARDS: "Oh, do fuck off. Now, over to Laura Tobin for the fantastically nubile weather."
Thanks for reminding me
of Laurie Anderson's Blue Lagoon (Shakespeare is about 2.30 in)
Might I say..
I am not aware of any implement within the dental œvre (did anyone notice the dipthong there.. classy or what?) which could be called a toothcomb. Matters dental can be removed from this debate.
Whilst we're at it..
Sliver. Slither. How many times do I see these words misused? The Telegraph is particularly guilty.
Saying that, I'm not a wordsmith by trade. I'd be a tad narked if some spotty hack told me how to do dentistry. By the same token, I should probably keep my half-baked attempts at pedantry under wraps.
œuvre
Great thread but hard not to pick up on typos.
Since "typo" is short for "typographical error"
Shouldn't it be typo's?
☺
I'm flattered you think it's a typo..
Sadly not. Just my shitty spelling.
Sp.
I believe it is "diphthong"?
I cannot believe that I have entered the fray here. I was perusing these posts with a superior smirk on my face wondering why on earth you are all getting so worked up about it. But now I feel like Silvio Dante - "just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in".
Completely off topic but here are Silvio's greatest hits. Contains swearing, violence etc. - all the good stuff.
Might I say..
I am not aware of any implement within the dental œvre (did anyone notice the dipthong there.. classy or what?) which could be called a toothcomb. Matters dental can be removed from this debate.
Whilst we're at it..
Sliver. Slither. How many times do I see these words misused? The Telegraph is particularly guilty.
Saying that, I'm not a wordsmith by trade. I'd be a tad narked if some spotty hack told me how to do dentistry. By the same token, I should probably keep my half-baked attempts at pedantry under wraps.
If you think grammar's important...
..you've got another thing coming.
No you haven't, you've got another think coming, you idiot. What is this *thing* you're suddenly talking about? Grrr.
I have always known the expression as 'thing',
I always assumed this was right as I believe this is the most common form used in English English.
A quick google search seems to suggest that the American English form is 'think' and it may be an American turn of phrase that has been adopted, but to my mind 'thing' is apt and proper and it is a 'thing', an idea or situation, that will shake your preconceptions and cause you to think again.
I am not an idiot.
um,
that rather destroys the beautty of the phrase doesn't it?
I associate it with slightly pompous teachers or parents and now I am a parent obviously am pumping up my pompous glands on a daily basis.
"I thought my homework didn't have to be in till tomorrow"
"If you think that you've got another think coming, young feller-me-lad"
How could substituting "thing" for "think" be anything other than an utter clunkfest and not to mention a non-sequitur?
Yes
it can't be a UK/US thing - "thing" simply makes no sense in that context
"Another thing coming" is popular among the Cousins
But, frankly, what else can you expect from people who think it's "process cheese".
Process cheese
I get that, like, all the time? When dealing with colleagues in, like, other offices? Like, worldwide? Who speak Business Esperanto rather than anything resembling English as she is spoke like wot I does.
So - it's called "process" with the "pro" to rhyme with "raw", instea' o' uh,like, "toe"?
But it's not "prawcess" - it's mostly cheese. As in "I touched base with Franco and got a heads-up on status re: deliverables end-client side?"
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
I feel 'another think coming' is the clunky one - those two 'k' sounds colliding with each other, and the use of a 'think' in this context just seems wrong to me, the phrase doesn't have to follow 'thought' in a conversation or passage, a 'thing' can be anything; a re-think, a consequence, a surprise.
And another thing; we use this phrase to further an argument, the sense of 'thing' in this context is similar in my mind.
One more thing; English is a colourful language full of metaphor and simile and not everything always follows a strictly logical progression.
One final thing; I have always assumed it was 'thing' and this thread has certainly brought to my attention the fact that many people strongly believe it is 'think'. You learn something new every day, particularly round these parts.
You can lead
a horse to water but you can't make it think, do you mean?
English is infinitely protean I agree - but an idiom or axiom in this case exists in its own terms. It is what it is. It means what it means.
Ironically, if you think "thing" is correct - then you have another think coming
I would always say and write...
..."thing". Every time. "Think" looks really, really wrong.
perhaps -
but it's really, really right.
Sure?
I thought it was..."you can take a horse to water but a pencil has to be lead."
You can lead a whore to culture
... but you can't make her think (Dorothy Parker)
Double post
so deleting this one
Well.
I think it's debatable, at best. The "thing isn't logical" argument is itself illogical, in that idioms in English are often odd, illogical or opaque in meaning.
Sad man that I am, I did a lot of googling on this one, and both sides are represented almost equally. Let's just agree to differ. :)
Let's agree to differ
as long as you agree I'm right...(wink/smile/chummy clap on shoulder)
The situation is not helped by the fact there is a Judas Priest song called "You've Got Another Thing Coming".
Mind you, very few situations are helped by a Judas Priest song.
Anyway, at the end of the night, a bird in the hand is better than two in the pear tree.
Ah well
That's the thing about the Internet. It gives at least equal airtime to the wrong.
It's think. Cos that's what my mum says. I feel a central Govt edict coming on.
Oh, we don't do that any more...
You think you've got problems
I have just finished teaching a unit of History on slavery, after
describing the cramped conditions of tight packing,and that each slave only had a living space of five feet six inches in length, with a width of eighteen inches, I was asked (he's 13),"Did the slaves REALLY have five feet, sir?
If you're reasonably skilled in numerous fields...
..but just don't shine at one thing in particular, my pal insists you are a Jack of all traits.
oh I like that
- a wistful twist - a happy accident.
Mrs Malaprop is
In The House !
and as regards above - fine-tooth is surely an adjective describing a type of comb, n'est-ce-pas?
I dunno...
If it's too much bear then I'm usually in the wrong gay bar. It happens; one moves on and gets over it.
Reasonable Force
I think if someone who claims to be a "journalist" leans over you to in such circumstances and says 'Dude..Word Nerd' it is entirely acceptable to lamp the fucker.
Nah, he's alright
He doesn't know the difference between lose and loose, or flaunt and flout, and like most straight-outta-college scribes he thinks libel is something you find in the back of your shirt, but I've seen a lot worse.
Are you sure...
...he isn't 'all right'?!
Probably.
The problem with starting an expedition up Mount Pedant is that just when you think you're near the summit you find there's a whole bunch of people further up, looking down on you.
Standing at the shoulder of the captain
What's got a spine but no backbone?
The OED, it would appear.
Kenny reckons
It's fine TOOTH comb, and that's enough for me.
Ten items or less
never fails to rankle at the supermarket.
Ten items or less
never fails to rankle at the supermarket.
Sorry Captain U,
but I think your post was a bit of a damp squid. I would even go so far as to say it was a bit cock-handed.
Thanks Dougie! And here's my rebuttal...
*thinks*
Did the Captain get my deliberate mis-spellings or...
By the way, you could have just said 'here's my butt'.
I got 'em
My reply probably wasn't as funny as I thought it was. D'oh!
The magazine I work for...
...or the magazine for which I work? Discuss ;-)
I have written acres of collateral which went to accountancy and law firms. They certainly notice any kind of solecism. Maintain the standards, say I.
Oh dear
I don't know if I'll have the courage to post here ever again now...
What if my autodidactic hyphenation and slim grasp of english grammar - mainly picked up from the works of P G Wodehouse - will give one of you a brain haemorrhage ?
As I don't wish to see any of you slip into a coma; if you read an especially illwritten post by me in future, please take a deep breath and remind yourself that I am but a swede...dense but very good for your health !
Applause
You spelled "haemorrhage" correctly, which is more than The Daily Mail managed yesterday.
I may be a swede
but I'm definitely no journalist! ;-D
If you're being ultra-picky..
Shouldn't it be hæmorrhage?
you can
get an ointment for those can't you?
So nice . . .
So nice to sea so meny felow speling pednats on this bolg.
I'm reminded of that very silly schoolboy joke:
"Antidisestablishmentarianism is a very long word. Can you spell it?"
"I, T."
Sky have been playing trailers for a film this week
that they claim is called Ghosts of Girlfriend's Past.
I've seen it (trapped on a plane back from Turkey last year - don't watch it if you have a choice) and it's a riff on A Christmas Carol. Seemed like a pretty big clanger for a national broadcaster to drop I thought.
'I could care less'
... so you couldn't care more, eh?
Michael Quinlon has an interesting take on this...
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ico1.htm
Whilst it is clearly 'wrong', it does make more sense if you think about it in the same sarcastic terms as "I should be so lucky" or "tell me about it".
I've always thought it was fine apart from the missing elipsis - i.e. it should be "I could care less..." with "but not much" being the implied/missing bit!
Lakeside
I was at Lakeside shopping centre earlier today. An man passed us with the following slogan on his T-shirt:
'I'm drunk but your still ugly'
Churchill spins in his grave
I hate T-shirt slogans that get things wrong/miss the point.
I saw one of a badly-drawn Victor Meldrew that said "Can You Believe It". No question mark, or even an exclamation mark. It's not even the right catchphrase.
Shoots you sir
Am I hovvered?
Loadsa Honey
Er...I'll get my boat...
Possibly even worse....
Wobbling out of a bar in Tenerife I saw a woman , well into her seventies with a T-shirt proclaiming "Wine Me Dine Me Sixty Nine Me"
That Joan Collins.
What is she like, eh?
Missed my chance...
Like she's mistaken haemorrhoid cream for Ponds.
What?
So do you have a really good comb for your teeth or not? Sometimes I struggle to keep up round here.
All the music mags …
… use eponymous incorrectly, when referring to a band's self-titled album. (It should be homonymous.)
The Shorter Oxford...
...says:
eponymous (adjective)-(of a person) giving his or her name to something; (of a thing) named after a particular person.
A homonym is 'each of two or more words having the same written form but of different meaning and origin', or 'a person or thing having the same name as another; a namesake'.
The Captain raises his bat
and shamelessly milks the weak applause as the sun rises over the gasometer here at Lords. Marooned on 99 overnight, it's taken a 6.00am bumper from Merv to see him over the line. Only his second century in 18 months playing for The Word - not sure why he's making such a fuss of it, Bumble?
- No call for it, Aggers, and I must say, deliberately relocating the gasometer to Lord's to provoke an easy volley from the pedants, not to mention the missing apostrophe... it's poor form, is that.
- Quite right. The crowd hushes as Underpants hunches over his bat awaiting the next delivery. Double ton, do we think, Geoffrey?
- No.
According to Dorothy Parker
You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.
(Sorry - this was meant to be a reply to a post several spots above here...)
Which I did in fact do before seeing this
Sorry...
How does anyone not a native of these isles
Ever learn such a complex language as English? 100 posts, and half of them from people who have English as a first language arguing the toss over the minutiae of grammar and punctuation. My admiration for anglophones from overseas knows no bounds.
even bankers...
I was with a financial advisor yesterday and the first time he referred to a entry level product as 'bob standard' , I thought it was my hearing.
...but by the third time in an hour, it was starting to become clear that he meant it. Everything else he said *seemed* right, but really...
Perhaps there's a guy in his team called Bob...
who does everything in a bare-minimum, no-frills kind-of-way!
Impossible to underestimate the significance...
This common usage drives me mad. It is impossible to OVERestimate, its always very easy indeed to underestimate
not always...
some might feel it's impossible to underestimate the importance of the many points raised in this thread.
I admit...
... defeat!
Here Here!
That really annoys me.
To a certain type of mind...
To a certain type of mind, usually male, pedantry is highly addictive. My pet hate is the made-up word "intricle" ("intrical?"). I'm hearing that everywhere these days.
Intricle
Is that a belly button that goes in, unlike an outricle?
Supposably
I've just realised that one of my colleagues says 'supposably' instead of 'supposedly'. Too late to correct her now.